Carbs & Fats Mixed

Tom Treutlein

New Member
I hear so much dang controversey about this - probably more than anything else. This is my one big gripe that still exists with dieting. I'd really love to hear from Bryan or Lyle, but I rarely see them posting here.

In any case - what's the real deal? Can you mix them? SHOULD you mix them? Will it lead to excess fat gain? A ton of it? A little? How do you determine this? Where's the science behind it?

I hear that carbs and fats causes an insulin spike, with the fat being shuttled by the insulin and getting stored due to the spike.

I also hear that by the time the fat is digested and gets into the bloodstream, the spike dies down and doesn't cause any negative effects.

Let's clear this up once and for all! It should really be in a sticky, article or FAQ and passed around, once the real answer is discussed, covered and unleashed. People need to know. I'M ONE OF THEM.
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The reason it probably isn't in the FAQ or Sticky is it is quite complicated of a system and it would take lot more than a FAQ to explain it. Since I am new at this also and have been corrected about my assumptions many times mostly by Aaron
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I started doing some more intensive study on the whole relationship myself. So here is a quote from a lecture that luckily a friend who has a degree in Nutrition was willing to tutor me with. It may help you but still it is only a fragment and I am sure there are others who can explain it more simply. Lyle, Aaron_F
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The glucose/fatty acid/ketone body cycle and its hormonal control explains the reciprocal relationship between the oxidation of glucose versus fatty acids or ketone bodies.

Under conditions of carbohydrate stress (i.e., depletion of liver glycogen stores), fatty acids are mobilized from adipose tissue and their rate of oxidation by muscle is increased which, in turn, decreases glucose utilization.
The low insulin-to-glucagon ratio in starvation activates lipolysis to elevate blood fatty acids as an alternative fuel to glucose; thus glucagon signals fat mobilization.
Conversely, when carbohydrate stress is removed by refeeding, fatty acid release by adipose tissue is decreased by insulin, thus decreasing fatty acid oxidation by the liver.
Glucose use by the muscle increases when insulin is present. These responses stabilize blood glucose.
The regulatory effect of fatty acid oxidation on glucose utilization is a logical necessity considering:
1) the small reserves of carbohydrate in the body
2) the obligatory requirement by some tissues (e.g., RBC, brain) for glucose.
In muscle, fatty acid oxidation decreases glucose utilization through negative effects on glucose transport as well as on the activities of hexokinase, phosphofructokinase-1, and pyruvate dehydrogenase.
The flux determining step for eventual fatty acid oxidation by muscle is the hormone-sensitive lipase of adipose tissue. This point is important since it is the elevated levels of plasma fatty acids that increase muscle oxidation of this fuel, leading to the changes indicated above.
Heart and skeletal muscle prefer fatty acids over glucose.

The brain does not use fatty acids as a substrate since they penetrate the blood-brain barrier poorly and require more oxygen for their consumption.

Fatty acids in the liver are oxidized to produce ATP to support the energy needs of gluconeogenesis.

Exceeding the limits of the citric acid cycle to oxidize acetyl CoA during gluconeogenesis promotes formation of ketone bodies from the excess acetyl CoA derived from -oxidation of fatty acids. Ketones are released into the blood as a source of energy for other tissues. Like fatty acids, ketone bodies are preferred by many tissues over glucose. The presence of ketone bodies and fatty acids has a "sparing effect" upon blood glucose to make glucose more available for use by the brain. Eventually ketones are also used as a fuel in the brain. The use of ketone bodies by the brain reduces glucose use in an analogous manner to the effect of fatty acids on muscle. Ketones never completely replace the need for glucose by the brain but they do decrease the rate of glucose use by 80% to 90% in the brain, and suppress the loss of protein in skeletal muscle to decrease muscle wasting. As noted earlier, an excessive build-up of ketones can lead to acidosis, which is prevented by ketone bodies promoting insulin release from the pancreas.



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THE TRANSITION FROM THE WELL-FED STATE TO PROLONGED STARVATION
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Phase I: In the well-fed state, glucose is provided by dietary carbohydrate.

Phase II: Once this supply is exhausted, hepatic glycogenolysis maintains blood glucose levels during the postabsorptive phase, which lasts up to 16 hours.

Phase III: As the glucose supply dwindles, liver gluconeogenesis becomes increasingly important until, in early starvation, it is the major source of blood glucose. All of these changes occur within just 20 or so hours after the last meal, depending on how well fed the individual was prior to the fast, how much hepatic glycogen was present, and the sort of physical activity during the fast. Dependence upon hepatic gluconeogenesis decreases, and renal gluconeogenesis becomes significant . This occurs because enough ketones have accumulated to permit uptake by the brain to meet some of the energy needs of this tissue.

Phase IV: Finally, the individual enters the prolonged starvation phase. Prolonged starvation is characterized by even less dependence upon gluconeogenesis, the energy needs of every tissue containing mitochondria being met to an even greater extent by either fatty acid or ketone body oxidation. As long as ketone body concentrations are high, proteolysis is restricted, and conservation of muscle proteins occurs. This continues until all the fat is gone, after which the body resorts solely to using muscle protein until death.

The well-fed state operates while food is being absorbed from the intestine, and is more correctly termed the absorptive state. Carbohydrates and fats are oxidized to CO2 and H2O in peripheral tissues to provide energy for synthetic reactions and to sustain cell function. After a meal, surplus fuel is converted to glycogen and/or fat by the action of insulin released from the pancreas. In the liver, glucose is converted primarily into glycogen or pyruvate, or pentoses for the generation of NADPH for synthetic processes. Excess pyruvate from glucose is used for lipogenesis and the synthesis and release of triglycerides (triacylglycerols) contained in VLDL. Fatty acids from the triglycerides are primarily stored in adipose tissue. Much of the absorbed glucose circulates to other tissues. The brain is dependent upon glucose catabolism for its production of ATP. In the well-fed state, the liver utilizes glucose and does not engage in gluconeogenesis. Thus, the Cori cycle is interrupted in the well-fed state. In muscle, insulin promotes storage of glucose as glycogen.

In the postabsorptive state, glucagon release from the pancreas begins. In response to glucagon, liver glycogenolysis provides the most glucose (75%) in this transitional period with gluconeogenesis from several substrates providing the remainder. The role of the glucose-alanine cycle is just developing. Alanine contributes as much carbons to gluconeogenesis as the other amino acids combined. Note: 50-60% of the glucose is consumed by the brain. Fat mobilization is minimal at this time. During the early (gluconeogenic) phase of starvation, the body is geared to synthesizing glucose to make up for the lack of dietary intake and the depletion of liver glycogen. Glucose oxidation, primarily by the brain, causes blood glucose levels to fall. In turn there is a further decline in the insulin-to-glucagon ratio which promotes the mobilization of fatty acids and of amino acids which are required for the acceleration of gluconeogenesis in the liver.

As starvation progresses, the amount of blood ketones rises. The brain turns to ketones as the preferred fuel which spares the use of glucose by the brain. Concurrently, ketone bodies reduce alanine release from muscle and decrease the demands for producing glucose which in turn helps to conserve protein. Thus glucose homeostasis is maintained by decreasing glucose use in the face of diminished glucose production. Decreased glucose production is essential for conserving the limited amounts of muscle protein. It is noteworthy that muscle dysfunction can occur with the loss of just 40% of muscle protein mass.

Organ relationships occurring in starvation: Red blood cells must continue to use glucose as they contain no mitochondria for oxidizing fatty acids or ketones. In the early period of starvation, lactate and amino acids are brought to the liver as precursors for the synthesis of the glucose needed not only for RBC, but also for the brain. At this time, fats are being mobilized and provide an alternate fuel for the liver and muscle so that these tissues decrease their oxidation of glucose; "glucose sparing". In theory, RBC spare glucose carbons as well because they can be recycled to the liver as lactate throughout starvation. As fatty acids continue to be released their excess uptake by the liver leads to ketone body production. Once ketone levels rise sufficiently in the blood, the brain can utilize them in lieu of glucose; the ultimate in glucose sparing.


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Table VI- Metabolic States and Signals
STATE
RESPONSE
SIGNAL

Feeding
Store fat, glucose, protein
High insulin, low glucagon

Fasting
Retrieve glucose and fat
Low insulin, high glucagon

Starvation
Retrieve fat and protein
Low insulin, high glucagon

Excitement
Retrieve glucose and fat quickly
High epinephrine

Diabetes
Retrieve fat and protein
Low insulin, high glucagon


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Table VII - Metabolic Movements of Storage Fuels as a Function of Metabolic State
Metabolic State Glycogen Fat Protein
Feeding Glycogen Synthesis
(Glucagon decreases)
(Insulin Increases) Fat Synthesis
(Glucagon decreases)
(Insulin Increases) Protein Synthesis
(Glucagon decreases)
(Insulin Increases)
Fasting Glycogen Degradation
(Glucagon increases)
(Insulin Decreases) Fat Degradation
(Glucagon Increases)
(Insulin Decreases) Protein Degradation
(Glucagon Increases)
(Insulin Decreases)
Starvation Glycogen EXHAUSTION
(Glucagon increases)
(Insulin Decreases) Fat Degradation
(Glucagon Increases)
(Insulin Decreases) EXTENSIVE Protein Degradation
(Glucagon Increases)
(Insulin Decreases)
Excitement Glycogen Degradation
(Epinephrine increases) Fat Degradation
(Epinephrine increases) Protein Degradation
(Epinephrine increases)
Diabetes Glycogen Degradation
(Glucagon increases)
(Insulin Decreases) Fat Degradation
(Glucagon Increases)
(Insulin Decreases) Protein Degradation
(Glucagon Increases)
(Insulin Decreases)


Glycogen: short-term reserve form of glucose

Fat: long-term storage form for energy (ATP)(fat produces no glucose equivalents)

Protein: long-term storage reserve of glucose and energy. Prolonged use for energy and glucose depletes muscle mass



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INSULIN-DEPENDENT DIABETES

The key metabolic issue in insulin-dependent diabetes is the lack of insulin. The metabolic picture parallels starvation in that glucagon is released. Even though both blood glucose and fatty acids are elevated, glucagon is secreted in response to increased blood amino acids. This excess glucagon exacerbates the problem by promoting glycogenolysis and lipolysis which further elevate the blood levels of glucose and fatty acids. Thus despite elevated blood glucose, protein and fats are mobilized, and ketone bodies are produced. Glucagon is released in response to elevated blood dietary amino acids, which are not being stored in protein in the absence of insulin (insulin stimulates protein synthesis). Since dietary glucose is still entering the body, there is a marked accumulation of blood glucose, as opposed to what occurs in starvation. Also the feedback mechanism is lost whereby excessive ketone bodies elicit a release of insulin to prevent ketoacidosis.

In diabetes, the control of blood glucose is defective. In juvenile diabetes, there is an inability to produce insulin. Administration of insulin can help to control blood glucose, though a tight control is difficult. With the advent of insulin pumps or the transplantation of isolated pancreatic cells from a donor will come the opportunity for diabetics to better control their insulin levels. In adult-onset diabetes, the problem is often associated with overeating. There is constant bombardment of cells with high levels of insulin and the cells respond by ridding themselves of insulin receptors. Thus in this form of diabetes, insulin administration is of little value.



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EXERCISE
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The fuel requirements for muscle in short, high-intensity exercise (e.g., a sprint) versus endurance activity (e.g., a marathon) differ considerably. In a sprint, the muscle requires a large amount of energy in a short period of time. In the first seconds of the high-intensity exercise, creatine phosphate is used to replenish the rapidly diminishing store of ATP

Creatine phosphokinase: creatine phosphate + ADP ---> creatine + ATP
Use of the creatine phosphate provides sufficient time for glycogenolysis to be activated by both hormonal and allosteric controls. The glucose-6-phosphate derived from glycogenolysis is largely consumed anaerobically via anaerobic glycolysis. Muscles used in sprinting are typically very bulky and therefore can contain tremendous stores of glycogen for the short-term, anaerobic activity.

In contrast, endurance activities require oxidative metabolism to sustain the muscle since glycogen can be depleted rather quickly. Although blood glucose may be used to some extent in such exercise, the principal fuel is fatty acids. Well-trained endurance athletes demonstrate an increased efficiency in mobilizing fats. Clearly it is desirable to not have elevated blood insulin levels before such an event since insulin slows lipolysis. When the ability to mobilize fats is inefficient, for whatever reason, the muscle will deplete its supply of glycogen and then have insufficient fatty acids available to sustain the muscle's energy demands. This is a situation termed "hitting the wall" because like a wall, a limited supply of fatty acids will stop you dead in your tracks.
 
You're kidding?
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I read that, and actually grasped some of it but...

I don't think it actually answered the question. If it did, I totally missed it. Did learn some things though.

Aaron, grace us with an answer, maybe?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Tom Treutlein @ Oct. 07 2004,1:03)]In any case - what's the real deal? Can you mix them? SHOULD you mix them? Will it lead to excess fat gain? A ton of it? A little? How do you determine this? Where's the science behind it?
Who cares, it doesnt make a difference and tehre is no real support behind it.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I hear that carbs and fats causes an insulin spike, with the fat being shuttled by the insulin and getting stored due to the spike.
everything you eat affects insulin. Fat is absorbed slower than glucose, so its unimportant what insulin is doing.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]People need to know. I'M ONE OF THEM.
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if people use the search function they will find plenty of threads.

Your body is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay smarter than you can be by modulating carbs away from fats..
 
Bulking should have you eating frequently enough that you're still absorbing the contents of the last meal when you shove down more food. So there will probably be continuous carb and fat absorption.

aka don't worry about it. ;)
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Tom Treutlein @ Oct. 06 2004,9:28)]So just eat, and if they happen to fall together...screw it?
Pretty much, as Aaron has said many times "your body hates you" and in the end if you reasonably and within your energy needs (or more when bulking) then it pretty much takes care of itself.

As far as what I have learned, the human body is extremely complicated. No matter what you throw at it, it has a way of using what it needs, be it through conversions, or straight up natural substrate use, the body is evolved to survive and combats everything you do that goes against "it's nature".

But I still find it very interesting :D
 
Tom, if your really intersted in Lyle's thoughts then last time I looked it was still under 'vodoo nutrition' ;)

His forum is at www.bodyrecomposition.com
 
And even though not mentioned above by Aaron, this is assuming that the person is sound in metabolism and not Insulin Resistant. Insulin Resistance is a whole different ballgame.
 
and any diet, whether high. low or otherwise, that results in a loss of weight, will reduce insulin resistance.
 
Not to mention that Resistance Training has an effect on Carbohydrate oxidation and insulin sensitivity.

Postprandial Metabolism in Resistance-Trained versus Sedentary Males

John P. Thyfault; Scott R. Richmond; Michael J. Carper; Jeffrey A. Potteiger; Matthew W. Hulver

Abstract
Introduction: This investigation examined if postprandial metabolism differed between resistance-trained [(RT), N = 12] and sedentary [(SED), N = 12] males. A secondary objective was to determine whether different resistance-training programs [bodybuilding (BB), N = 8 and power/weight-lifting (PL), N = 8] resulted in disparate effects on postprandial energy metabolism.
Methods: Moderate fat [(MF), 37% carbohydrate, 18% protein, and 45% fat] and high carbohydrate [(HC), 79% carbohydrate, 20% protein, and 1% fat] meals were randomly administered, and postprandial metabolism was measured for 240 min. Carbohydrate oxidation, fat oxidation, diet-induced thermogenesis (DIT), and glucose and insulin areas under the curve (AUC) were calculated.
Results: Fat oxidization/lean body mass (LBM) was significantly greater in SED after the HC (RT, 0.27 ± 0.02 g vs SED, 0.33 ± 0.02 g, P = 0.017) and MF (RT, 0.34 ± 0.02 g vs SED, 0.39 ± 0.02 g, P = 0.036) meals. Carbohydrate oxidation/LBM was significantly greater in RT after the HC meal (RT, 0.87 ± 0.03 g vs SED, 0.74 ± 0.04 g, P = 0.017) only. DIT and DIT/LBM were significantly greater in RT compared with SED after the HC meal (DIT: RT, 351 ± 21 kJ vs SED, 231 ± 23 kJ, P = 0.001; DIT/LBM: RT, 5.25 ± 0.028 kJ vs SED, 3.92 ± 0.37 kJ, P = 0.009). The AUC for both glucose and insulin were significantly greater in SED compared with RT in response to the HC meal but not the MF meal. There were no differences in the BB and PL groups for any measured variables in response to either the HC or MF meals.
Conclusion: These data indicate that postprandial metabolism is different between resistance-trained and sedentary males but that no such differences exist with different resistance training styles.

Plus there a quite a few newer studies that suggest the glucose uptake by muscle when contracting has a definite effect in peripheral insulin sensitivity. They seem to be revolved around the GLUT4 transporter system.

Aaron any comments?
 
Isn't there some type of test you can do with your blood to determine how sensitive you are to insulin?

Anyone wanna point me to how to do this? I remember one on John Berardi's site, but I don't know how accurate it is.

Through that, I believe it was able to determine approx. how many carbohydrates one person should consume.

The more resistant to insulin you are the more carbs you're able to have, right? Or is it the other way around?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Tom Treutlein @ Oct. 09 2004,12:16)]Isn't there some type of test you can do with your blood to determine how sensitive you are to insulin?
Anyone wanna point me to how to do this? I remember one on John Berardi's site, but I don't know how accurate it is.
Through that, I believe it was able to determine approx. how many carbohydrates one person should consume.
The more resistant to insulin you are the more carbs you're able to have, right? Or is it the other way around?
AS far as the test I don't know, the Doc does mine when I go in for blood work. But my brother is diabetic I will ask him what he does, as he monitors his quite frequently. I beleive he is striclty looking to stay in a range, but I'll ask.

Resistant is not good, this means that insulin can't do it's job so your blood glucose levels remain high instead of being transported into the liver and other tissue (muscle) for breakdown, storage or use.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ Oct. 09 2004,1:30)]AS far as the test I don't know, the Doc does mine when I go in for blood work. But my brother is diabetic I will ask him what he does, as he monitors his quite frequently. I beleive he is striclty looking to stay in a range, but I'll ask.
Resistant is not good, this means that insulin can't do it's job so your blood glucose levels remain high instead of being transported into the liver and other tissue (muscle) for breakdown, storage or use.
I am i type II diabetic (non insulin dependant) and the ideal range is 4 - 8 and i keep mostly in that range by eating low GI foods, however i do go over this mostly from breakfast to around 10 - 13 which is not bad like some but still also not good, but im also overweight which im slowy getting under control and once the weight is down this should no longer be a real problem for me.
 
Insulin sensitivity test

There are a few methods (indirect and direct) but the one I know we used in my department required a clamp and insulin infusion. So its unlikely that a doctor will offer it
Berardis method is a 'estimate' he is also trying to deal with a non-resistant population (bbrs as a whole) and there is little evidence that improving insulin sensitivity over and above a certain mark will achieve anything... Improving clinical resistance will have an affect.

Insulin resistant people can still have carbs, but it may potentially be better to have less carbs (and mostimportantly, as most insulin resistant people are fat, eat less of everything)

Two best methods to improve insulin resistance

1) lose fat
2) perform regular, glycogen depleting workouts
 
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