HST during Steroid Cycle

Mark

Your best bet is to refer to FAQ e-book, Bryan has some insight onto this.

Some of the guys here might be able to give you some guidance too.

Sorry but that is outside my area of expertise
butbut.gif
 
Obviously you'll have to keep working out during PCT rather than take an SD... I'd keep the frequency the same, use whatever volume you can handle, then stretch out the 5s and negatives as long as you can. Once you go into PCT, do what you can handle. Drop down frequency a bit if you have to, but I would try to either keep the weight constant or increase it slowly over time.

Keep in mind, I've never done a real cycle of any kind of steroid, so I might not know what I'm talking about. Heh.
 
I wouldn't drop frequency, drop volume during PCT. Frequency is much better to keep than volume in my opinion. You may need to drop the weight a little too. You're not necessarily going to be able to push as much up as you did while on cycle. We're not talking a major drop, 90% of your max per rep range would be a good target point to not go below. Beyond that, the FAQ is a great reference.
 
The FAQ explains that the benefits of steroids will be best obtained by increasing volume rather than frequency while on cycle. So continue to work out each muscle group every 48 hours (not more often), but increase the total number of sets according to your (increased) recovery capacity.

Second, don't max out your weights while on cycle. Instead, simply increase the number of reps per set as you get stronger.  This way, when you end your cycle and do PCT, you can still add weight to the bar.  The still-increasing tension is a good way to retain your gains while on PCT.  A way to do this would be to start the steroid cycle on the 10's and first week of 5's.  You'll repeat workouts (those poundages) a few times each to accomodate the length of the steroid cycle. (Note that overcoming RBE with progressive poundages is not nearly as critical while on AAS).  Then, when you go off cycle and start PCT, do the second week of 5's and negatives (again extended through the duration of your PCT).  Continue with a 48 hour frequency and just drop the volume to what you would do naturally on 5's and post 5's.  This way, the tension will continue to increase after you go off the steroids.
 
Thanks first and foremost for your answers!

I'm right now in the 5th week of my cycle and ponder on whether I should switch to HST?! I know it's not very good to not train with full confidence, especially while on Testo-E but right now I don't know whether I want to continue working-out the way I have to this point! Would you advise me to switch to HST right now or should I do this after the cycle or at the start of a new cycle?
I would love to see what I could get from HST with Testo now but if it doesn't make sense I will just continue with my current work-out!
Are you guys more into "classic HST" or "Cluster HST"?

Thx,
Mark
 
Mark

Show us what you doing now!

We may be able to help you, at least for the next few weeks even after you finish your cycle.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Conciliator @ Dec. 05 2005,8:41)]...
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I'd agree with increasing the weights after a short oral cycle.  Test E for weeks though is bound to lead to serious supression of natural T levels.  During PCT after a long injectable cycle even with lowering the volume, trying to up the weights isn't always the best idea.  I know a lot of people who have lost a lot of gains that way. I do know some who do it that way and can, but it seems more hit or miss to me than keeping the weight the same and even lowering it slightly if necessary. Frequent low volume workouts will help offset the catabolism of PCT, but trying to push too much weight will make things worse for a lot of people. Is the lowered volume in your opinion enough to stop your body from breaking down the gained muscle to any large extent.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Fausto @ Dec. 07 2005,7:12)]Mark
Show us what you doing now!
We may be able to help you, at least for the next few weeks even after you finish your cycle.
Click to expand...
Right now I do the following:
I have a 2-day split and currently work-out with a 2-1 ratio:

Day 1: Pull
Deadlift 3x6-8 but I try to change to 3x8-10
Latpulldown 3x10
Cable Row (only if I feel like) 3x10
Scottcurl 3x10
DB Hammer Curl 3x10

Day 2: Push
Squat 3x6-8 but I want to change to 3-8-10
Bench 3x6-8
DB Shoulder Press 3x10
Tricep Pushdowns 3x10
Dips 3xmax(which is not a lot;)) if I feel like

So you see, right now it doesn't look alot like HST! What would you advise me to do?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (xahrx @ Dec. 07 2005,10:14)]I'd agree with increasing the weights after a short oral cycle.  Test E for weeks though is bound to lead to serious supression of natural T levels.  During PCT after a long injectable cycle even with lowering the volume, trying to up the weights isn't always the best idea.  I know a lot of people who have lost a lot of gains that way.  I do know some who do it that way and can, but it seems more hit or miss to me than keeping the weight the same and even lowering it slightly if necessary.  Frequent low volume workouts will help offset the catabolism of PCT, but trying to push too much weight will make things worse for a lot of people.  Is the lowered volume in your opinion enough to stop your body from breaking down the gained muscle to any large extent.
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Where do you get the idea that increasing the load while on PCT is a bad idea? You say that you know a lot of people who have lost a lot of gains that way. I call BS. Increasing the load increases the tension on the muscle and preserves gains; a relative decrease in load and tension (coupled with low T levels especially) is a great recipe to lose muscle.  You talk about "trying to push too much weight" making things worse for people. Too much weight for what?  If you hold back during your cycle at your 7 to 8 RM, how is progressing to your 5 RM while on PCT "too much weight?" Read chapter 24 in the FAQ.
 
PCT is an initialism for "Post Cycle Therapy." Since a cycle of steroids shuts down the body's own natural production of testosterone, drugs are usually taken immedately after the steroid cycle to get production back to normal as fast as possible. Otherwise, testosterone levels will remain low for a much longer period of time and a good portion of the gains from the cycle will be lost.  No one should start taking steroids without a PCT plan. The most common approach is to take Nolvadex (or Clomid) and hCG (often on cycle as well).

Any other initialisms that we used that are new to you?
 
No, everything else is clear! I know what that therapy is but the PCT confused me;)!

Thanks,
Mark

PS: What do you say to my workout plan and how should I change it, if so, during the cycle for it to be HST?
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (HSTMunich85 @ Dec. 07 2005,4:49)]No, everything else is clear! I know what that therapy is but the PCT confused me;)!
Thanks,
Mark
PS: What do you say to my workout plan and how should I change it, if so, during the cycle for it to be HST?
Click to expand...
It looks like you already have a lot of compound movements, which is good. Exercise selection won't need to change much, if at all. The main changes will be dropping the split (going full body), increasing the frequency (to 3x per week), and decreasing the volume (to accomodate the frequency). Note that with three workouts per week, you'll be doing about the same volume (total sets) as before. This is what I'd recommend:

Full body, 3x per week:
(start with adequate warm ups, of course)
Squat 1x6-8
Deadlift 1x6-8
Calf Raise 1x10 (I'd add these)
Bench 1x8-10
Lat pulldown 1x8-10
DB Shoulder Press 1x10
Scottcurl 1x10
Tricep Pushdowns 1x10

With the increased recovery capactity that comes with steroids I would think that you can handle more volume than this, say 2 to 4 sets per exercise. The reason I used only one set in my recommendation is because it corresponds to the weekly volume you're currently using (3 sets per week per exercise). Start with 1 set and see how you feel, but increase it according to your ability to recover so that you're getting the most out of the steroid cycle.

Also, if you have any weak points that you want to work on then add another set of that exercise. For example, if you feel your back is lagging, then do an extra set of lat pulldowns each workout.

As far as poundage progression, it's really not that important while on steroids. If you can increase the weights, however, and still stay around your 7-8 RM, then do so. When you go off cycle, you can increase the poundage from that range up to your new 5 RM. This progression will help with retention of your gains.

And of course, eat eat eat.
 
Thanks, that's lots of nice infos but does it make sense to switch to HST now during my cycle? Is SD not neccesary before doing HST?

Mark
 
Under most circumstances an SD would be the best way to start HST. You could switch to it now if you want, however, if you do, don't start with a weight that is lower than what you have been using. You may be able to get away with not increasing the load for a while, but if you go back down to a weight that you would use for the 15s (after lifting your 10 rep max, for instance), you probably won't get much growth out of it.

Definitely increase your volume, though (more sets).
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (HSTMunich85 @ Dec. 07 2005,6:13)]Thanks, that's lots of nice infos but does it make sense to switch to HST now during my cycle? Is SD not neccesary before doing HST?
Mark
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I see no reason why switching to HST would be a bad idea right now. The exercises are the same, so there's no wasted time for neural adaption. You're just shuffling the training parameters for increased frequency. I would expect better results with HST over your current routine.

As semajes said, you're not going to want to SD in the middle of a steroid cycle. That would be a waste of your androgens. Strategic deconditioning is to help you overcome the adaptaion to the load (RBE), which is not really an issue while on steroids anyway.

Also, when you switch over to HST (mid-cycle like this) you'll want to use the same weights that you're currently using. Just continue with the same poundages (in the same rep range as indicated in the routine). As you get stronger, feel free to increase the load, but don't go heavier than the 7-8 RM range. Again, this is so that when you go off cycle (on PCT) you can continue to increase the load up to your new 5 RM.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Conciliator @ Dec. 07 2005,2:16)]
Click to expand...
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Where do you get the idea that increasing the load while on PCT is a bad idea? You say that you know a lot of people who have lost a lot of gains that way. I call BS. Increasing the load increases the tension on the muscle and preserves gains
Click to expand...

Because during PCT your body's ability to recover from that application of tension is diminished. It takes less to maintain muscle than it does to build it, and for most people during PCT after a long cycle their body is not in any state to make gains. Maintaining is the best most people can hope for during PCT. Most I've seen at least. As I said, I know some people who can work through PCT and keep gains and even make some, but they are not the norm in my experience. They also tend to stick to shorter cycles of orals or short ester/base injectables or transdermals. Munich is on 16 week test E cycle. That means a long PCT and serious supression at the end. When his last dose finally clears his system his natural T production will be through the floor and he'll be extremely catabolic and in no position to make gains unless he's a genetic freak. He'll be lucky if he hangs on to most of them.

I have read the FAQ, I disagree with it in some areas. You'll note the FAQ talks mostly about 2on/4off cycles. In that case yes, a PCT going into the fives with a weight increase probably won't be a bad idea depending on the steroid used because natural T production will likely recover very quickly. But, for example, a two week cycle of M1T would throw that into a much different light since most people's T levels drop to nothing in two or three days on M1T and take longer to recover than two weeks of other, milder orals. I seriously doubt Blade was writing about a two week cycle of Test E or any other nonbase injectable with such a long half life.

Now, as I said he "may" need to drop the weight a little. A max drop of 10% is not going to destroy your gains and is likely enough to maintain them providing diet is good. There is a balancing act during PCT. Yes, during PCT a relative decrease in load that's too large will cause a loss in gains. A relative increase that's too large would also be bad. His body will be more likely to destroy muscle than to keep it, much less build it.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]You talk about "trying to push too much weight" making things worse for people. Too much weight for what? If you hold back during your cycle at your 7 to 8 RM, how is progressing to your 5 RM while on PCT "too much weight?" Read chapter 24 in the FAQ.
Click to expand...

I have. I've also done my share of cycles and designed them for other people. 16 weeks of test e and trying to push up more and more weight during PCT is a bad idea unless volume is much lower than on cycle, and even then it could still lead to a loss in gains. As you'll note I said 90% of your max weight per rep range is a good mark to not go below. I don't think telling someone to be prepared to drop the weight a max of 10% so they don't tear their muscles up when their body is in no position to repair them is bad advice. But that's all it is, my advice. Take it or leave it.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (xahrx @ Dec. 07 2005,7:45)]Because during PCT your body's ability to recover from that application of tension is diminished.
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So decrease the volume, but not the load.
[b said:
Quote[/b] (xahrx @ Dec. 07 2005,7:45)]It takes less to maintain muscle than it does to build it, and for most people during PCT after a long cycle their body is not in any state to make gains.  Maintaining is the best most people can hope for during PCT.
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Right, but with low testosterone levels, even the same load is not going maintain, let alone a lower load!
[b said:
Quote[/b] (xahrx @ Dec. 07 2005,7:45)]Munich is on 16 week test E cycle.  That means a long PCT and serious supression at the end.  When his last dose finally clears his system his natural T production will be through the floor and he'll be extremely catabolic and in no position to make gains unless he's a genetic freak.  He'll be lucky if he hangs on to most of them.
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Exactly, which is why it would be stupid to have low test levels AND drop the load. I'm not talking about increasing the load to make gains. Increasing the load is the best you can do you counteract the low test levels and maintain as much as possible.  You're never going to maintain more by decreasing the load.
[b said:
Quote[/b] (xahrx @ Dec. 07 2005,7:45)] Now, as I said he "may" need to drop the weight a little.  A max drop of 10% is not going to destroy your gains and is likely enough to maintain them providing diet is good.  There is a balancing act during PCT.  Yes, during PCT a relative decrease in load that's too large will cause a loss in gains.  A relative increase that's too large would also be bad.
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That's too large? What does that mean? I'm talking about progressive poundages during PCT. And why would that be "bad"?
[b said:
Quote[/b] (xahrx @ Dec. 07 2005,7:45)] His body will be more likely to destroy muscle than to keep it, much less build it.
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You're telling me that progressive poundages during PCT will destroy muscle? Where in the world does this come from?
[b said:
Quote[/b] (xahrx @ Dec. 07 2005,7:45)]I have.  I've also done my share of cycles and designed them for other people.  16 weeks of test e and trying to push up more and more weight during PCT is a bad idea unless volume is much lower than on cycle, and even then it could still lead to a loss in gains.
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Of course volume is going to be much lower when you go on PCT.
[b said:
Quote[/b] (xahrx @ Dec. 07 2005,7:45)]As you'll note I said 90% of your max weight per rep range is a good mark to not go below.  I don't think telling someone to be prepared to drop the weight a max of 10% so they don't tear their muscles up when their body is in no position to repair them is bad advice.  But that's all it is, my advice.  Take it or leave it.
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So your position is that lifting your 5RM will tear your muscles up when on PCT... that your body is in no position to repair them? But a drop in 10% will be fine? Whatever.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Conciliator @ Dec. 07 2005,5:26)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (HSTMunich85 @ Dec. 07 2005,4:49)]No, everything else is clear! I know what that therapy is but the PCT confused me;)!
Thanks,
Mark
PS: What do you say to my workout plan and how should I change it, if so, during the cycle for it to be HST?
Click to expand...
It looks like you already have a lot of compound movements, which is good. Exercise selection won't need to change much, if at all. The main changes will be dropping the split (going full body), increasing the frequency (to 3x per week), and decreasing the volume (to accomodate the frequency). Note that with three workouts per week, you'll be doing about the same volume (total sets) as before. This is what I'd recommend:
Full body, 3x per week:
(start with adequate warm ups, of course)
Squat 1x6-8
Deadlift 1x6-8
Calf Raise 1x10 (I'd add these)
Bench 1x8-10
Lat pulldown 1x8-10
DB Shoulder Press 1x10
Scottcurl 1x10
Tricep Pushdowns 1x10
With the increased recovery capactity that comes with steroids I would think that you can handle more volume than this, say 2 to 4 sets per exercise. The reason I used only one set in my recommendation is because it corresponds to the weekly volume you're currently using (3 sets per week per exercise). Start with 1 set and see how you feel, but increase it according to your ability to recover so that you're getting the most out of the steroid cycle.
Also, if you have any weak points that you want to work on then add another set of that exercise. For example, if you feel your back is lagging, then do an extra set of lat pulldowns each workout.
As far as poundage progression, it's really not that important while on steroids. If you can increase the weights, however, and still stay around your 7-8 RM, then do so. When you go off cycle, you can increase the poundage from that range up to your new 5 RM. This progression will help with retention of your gains.
And of course, eat eat eat.
Click to expand...
OK, so if I'd do it this way, what would you think?
Full body, on average 3-4x per week(1-1 ratio)=>is that OK?
(start with adequate warm ups, of course)
Squat 1x6-8
Deadlift 1x6-8
Bench 1x8-10
Lat pulldown 1x8-10
DB Shoulder Press 1x10
Scottcurl 1x10
Tricep Pushdowns 1x10

I took the Calf Raises out since I've got pretty good developed calves...I might do them at some point but now I don't need em!
I think I can do more than just 1 set since I know have a 2-day split and do it 2,5 times a week which means I have 3setsx2,5workout days=> w/the frequency I have always tended more to HST than classic bodybuilding...so should I do 2 sets per exercise? Or even 3? I think I'm gonna start w/2 and then I'll see!

When I get to PCT, I'll lower my reps to my 5RM and also lower the volume to 1 set - right? And I do this to accomodate my more catabolic status? I'll also start using creatine at the end of my cycle so I'll be ready to go work while in PCT. Also Glutamine and 3g Vit C should help w/ the catabolic stage - right?

Thx,
Markus
 
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