HST during Steroid Cycle

[Conciliator]

The routine looks good and 2 sets per exercise sounds like a good starting volume.

As far as PCT, don't just jump up to your 5RM, but continue to increase the load over your PCT, eventually reaching your 5RM.  So, for example, if you're benching 175 for 7 reps during your cycle, when you go on PCT increase the poundages up to your 5RM, say 200. In this example, that would give you 5 increments of 5 lbs each for increasing the tension throughout PCT. Structure it to cover your PCT, so maybe one increment per week with these numbers.

It's my opinion that you should be taking creatine right now.  Studies have shown that creatine stimulates contractile protein synthesis (http://www.jcb.org/cgi/reprint/62/1/145.pdf) and it seems like a good adjunct while on cycle.  Don't confuse the water gains that come with initial creatine use as the preservation of lean mass (on PCT). I think you'll gain and retain the most muscle taking it both on and off cycle.

As for glutamine, I'd recommend this article by John Berardi: http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/qa/afc/afc_nov082002.htm "The major studies examining glutamine supplementation in otherwise healthy weightlifters have shown no effect. In the study by Candow et al (2001), 0.9g of supplemental glutamine/kg/day had no impact on muscle performance, body composition, and protein degradation."  If anything, glutamine might boost your immune system, but I wouldn't expect much by way of anticatabolic effect.

Lastly, do you have any Nolvadex (or clomid) for PCT? If not, you need to get some.

 

[HSTMunich85]

Quote[/b] (Conciliator @ Dec. 08 2005,4:47)]The routine looks good and 2 sets per exercise sounds like a good starting volume.
OK! I'm ready to get started!
As far as PCT, don't just jump up to your 5RM, but continue to increase the load over your PCT, eventually reaching your 5RM. So, for example, if you're benching 175 for 7 reps during your cycle, when you go on PCT increase the poundages up to your 5RM, say 200. In this example, that would give you 5 increments of 5 lbs each for increasing the tension throughout PCT. Structure it to cover your PCT, so maybe one increment per week with these numbers.
OK, then once I get into PCT I go from 7-8 reps to 5 reps and step by step I move up in the direction of my 5RM with increments of i.e. 5 pounds?!
It's my opinion that you should be taking creatine right now. Studies have shown that creatine stimulates contractile protein synthesis (http://www.jcb.org/cgi/reprint/62/1/145.pdf) and it seems like a good adjunct while on cycle. Don't confuse the water gains that come with initial creatine use as the preservation of lean mass (on PCT). I think you'll gain and retain the most muscle taking it both on and off cycle.
OK, seems like a nice article but I'm german and it would take lots of time to read it! Can you summarize it in a short form - I'd really appreciate it!
As for glutamine, I'd recommend this article by John Berardi: http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/qa/afc/afc_nov082002.htm "The major studies examining glutamine supplementation in otherwise healthy weightlifters have shown no effect. In the study by Candow et al (2001), 0.9g of supplemental glutamine/kg/day had no impact on muscle performance, body composition, and protein degradation." If anything, glutamine might boost your immune system, but I wouldn't expect much by way of anticatabolic effect.
So I should stop using glutamine? Everybody is like all into it...?!
Lastly, do you have any Nolvadex (or clomid) for PCT? If not, you need to get some.
Yeah, I know - I'm gonna get Thamoxifen as soon as I got some money - January...! In case of an emergency a good buddy of mine has some...!

 

[Totentanz]

Quote[/b] (Conciliator @ Dec. 07 2005,10:09)]You're telling me that progressive poundages during PCT will destroy muscle? Where in the world does this come from?

You ever see someone on a large calorie deficit who is working out with real heavy weights and ends up losing muscle? Yeah, I imagine in works in a similar way. Remember, weight lifting is damaging the muscle. If your body can't repair it very well... well, that's not good if you've done a buttload of microtrauma.

I doubt RBE is set in to such an extent that a 10% drop in weight, as suggested by xahrx, would be totally useless for maintaining muscle mass. It's always easier to maintain than it is to build muscle.

 

[xahrx]

Quote[/b] (Conciliator @ Dec. 07 2005,10:09)]

Quote[/b] ]So decrease the volume, but not the load.

Which is exactly what I said in my first post. I said he MAY have to lower the load. Reading comprehension classes perhaps?

Quote[/b] ]That's too large? What does that mean? I'm talking about progressive poundages during PCT. And why would that be "bad"?

Already explained. No specific poundages have been mentioned so I don't know what you're referring to when you ask "That's too large?"

Quote[/b] ]You're telling me that progressive poundages during PCT will destroy muscle? Where in the world does this come from?

Experience. From seeing guys come off cycle and still think they're superman, push themselves too hard and shrivel up like raisins.

Quote[/b] ]So your position is that lifting your 5RM will tear your muscles up when on PCT... that your body is in no position to repair them? But a drop in 10% will be fine? Whatever.

This will be my last post on this because you have an attitude and it's seriously annoying. Once more and for the last time, I said he MAY have to lower the weight a little, and that 90% of his MAX PER REP RANGE is a good target to NOT DROP BELOW. I've done enough of this myself to know that people can't handle the same volume after a cycle and sometimes can't handle the same weight either without losing gains.

Could he possibly work into his five rep max area without losing gains? Yes. Would it be beneficial to keep increasing tension on the muscle through PCT with lower volume? Yes. It just isn't always possible. Unless you can tell me everyone maintains their strength and mass gains from being on cycle his 5RM at the beginning, middle, end of his cycle and through PCT can vary pretty significantly, so pegging some random number as a goal with no idea if he can work through it and not allowing for the fact that he might be trying to push too much weight is a bad approach. I've seen enough people try that after two or three months of feeling like anything is possible and then fail miserably to know you have to make allowances.

A five to ten percent drop in weight IS NOT THAT SIGNIFICANT. People zig zag more than that in traditional HST workouts and still make gains. For those with good strength it's the equivilant of going back one increment at most. If that seems unreasonable to you well, we've had different experiences I guess.

 

[Conciliator]

Quote[/b] (Totentanz @ Dec. 08 2005,9:32)]You ever see someone on a large calorie deficit who is working out with real heavy weights and ends up losing muscle?  Yeah, I imagine in works in a similar way.  Remember, weight lifting is damaging the muscle.  If your body can't repair it very well...  well, that's not good if you've done a buttload of microtrauma.
I doubt RBE is set in to such an extent that a 10% drop in weight, as suggested by xahrx, would be totally useless for maintaining muscle mass.  It's always easier to maintain than it is to build muscle.

You ever see someone on a large calorie deficit who is working out with lighter weights because of the dogma that lighter weights are better for cutting? Yeah, they end up losing muscle because the load drops. This is an example we know quite well. I imagine it works in a similar way. And I think this analogy is much more relevant.

I don't think a 10% drop would be "totally useless" for maintaining muscle mass either. But I see no reason why it would be any better than increasing the load, and good reason why it would be worse. I think the purported fear of excessive microtrama (from a small, progressive increase) is balony. You'll be dropping volume when you go on PCT to accomodate the decreased recovery capacity anyway. It's not like the parameters of training can't be altered to allow an increase in load without overtraining.

"It's always easier to maintain muscle than it is to build muscle."  In other words, it takes a lighter load (or less volume) to maintain muscle than it does to build muscle.  Ok, sounds good, but let's add "for a given physical state."  While on PCT, it takes a lighter load to maintain muscle than build it.  While on cycle, it takes a lighter load to maintain muscle than build it. BUT IT DOES NOT FOLLOW that while on PCT it takes a lighter load to maintain muscle than the load used to build muscle while on cycle. That would be comparing apples to oranges, becuase the testosterone variable has changed.  Looking at PCT and the loads at a low testosterone level, even the the same weight (that was used on cycle) is probably not enough to maintain muscle. Decrease the weight, and all you're doing is straying even farther from maintenance, not moving towards it.

 

[Conciliator]

Quote[/b] (xahrx @ Dec. 08 2005,9:34)]

xahrx, I said "so decrease the volume" because you're still talking about the body not being able to recover from an increase in load, being "more likely to destroy muscle than to keep it." I know you said volume should drop on PCT. So drop it according to your abilty to recover. Like I said in the post above, "I think the purported fear of excessive microtrama (from a small, progressive increase) is balony."

Why are you making a big deal out of having said "may." Are you saying that when you talked about decreasing the load it was always out of necessity, due to a drop in strength? It sounds otherwise. You've said several times that you think increasing the load would be a bad idea. You're recommending maintaining or slightly decreasing the load, advising against increasing it, and saying "It takes less to build muscle than maintain it." See the post above on this.

I asked "that's too large?" in reference to your post in which you said "during PCT... A relative increase that's too large would also be bad." My point was that this is a non-issue. We're not talking about large increases in weight of the sort that would result in muscle fiber necrosis. We're talking about progressive poundages.

You say you've seen guys "push themselves too hard and shrivel up like raisins." Is this really due to the load per se (seems like no if it's "hit and miss," like you say), or is it due to the overall training: volume, frequency, intensity, etc? Wouldn't you agree that other training parameters can be altered (specifically volume) to accomodate a progressive increase in the load, without overtraining?

You say "Would it be beneficial to keep increasing tension on the muscle through PCT with lower volume? Yes. It just isn't always possible." I of course agree here, but it seems like you're contradicting yourself. You've already said several times that increasing the load (ie tension) on PCT is a bad idea. I'd add that it "isn't always possible" because guys often max out and lift heavy while on cycle, leaving no room for progression after the cycle. I'm confident, however, that if you stayed around your 8RM while on cycle you'd be able to increase the load during PCT. Even if your strength drops somewhat (within reason), you'll still be able to increase the load without surpassing your 5 RM weight. This is where "you have to make allowances," as you say... while you're on.

Again, you talk about "trying to push too much weight" being "a bad approach." Again, I ask "too much weight for what?" For recovery? Then adjust your training volume accordingly. Is it "too much weight" for something else?

You then say "A five to ten percent drop in weight IS NOT THAT SIGNIFICANT. People zig zag more than that in traditional HST workouts and still make gains." Read the post before this... you're comparing apples to oranges. A five to ten percent drop in weight is not that significant, all things being equal! But they're not, throw in really low test levels during PCT. Here, any drop IS significant... even the same weight is not a maintenance weight. ie, you're not dropping the weight towards a maintenance load, you're moving even further from it.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (Conciliator @ Dec. 08 2005,3:47)]It's my opinion that you should be taking creatine right now.  Studies have shown that creatine stimulates contractile protein synthesis (http://www.jcb.org/cgi/reprint/62/1/145.pdf) and it seems like a good adjunct while on cycle.  Don't confuse the water gains that come with initial creatine use as the preservation of lean mass (on PCT). I think you'll gain and retain the most muscle taking it both on and off cycle.

While I am a firm believer in Creatine, and it's use either on or off cycle, it's NOT because of what you state here as there is no evidence of such and as a matter of fact it's shown pretty conclusively that creatine DOES NOT directly impact synthesis rate.

The study you are referring too is quite old and you may wish to review these.

Louis M, Poortmans JR, Francaux M, Berre J, Boisseau N, Brassine E, Cuthbertson DJ, Smith K, Babraj JA, Waddell T, Rennie MJ.
No effect of creatine supplementation on human myofibrillar and sarcoplasmic protein synthesis after resistance exercise.
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Nov;285(5):E1089-94.

Louis M, Poortmans JR, Francaux M, Hultman E, Berre J, Boisseau N, Young VR,Smith K, Meier-Augenstein W, Babraj JA, Waddell T, Rennie MJ.
Creatine supplementation has no effect on human muscle protein turnover at rest in the postabsorptive or fed states.
Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2003 Apr;284(4):E764-70. Epub 2002 Dec 10.

Parise G, Mihic S, MacLennan D, Yarasheski KE, Tarnopolsky MA.
Effects of acute creatine monohydrate supplementation on leucine kinetics and mixed-muscle protein synthesis.
J Appl Physiol. 2001 Sep;91(3):1041-7.

 

[Conciliator]

Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ Dec. 09 2005,8:48)]While I am a firm believer in Creatine, and it's use either on or off cycle, it's NOT because of what you state here as there is no evidence of such and as a matter of fact it's shown pretty conclusively that creatine DOES NOT directly impact synthesis rate.

Good call. I now remember reading that the increases in contractile protein in groups supplementing with creatine were attributed not directly to the creatine, but to a secondary effect, as the creatine allowed for additional volume and/or load. (And this was just hypothesized, if I'm not mistaken). I couldn't find those references. Thanks for the clarification.

Any commment on increasing/decreasing the load while on PCT?

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (Conciliator @ Dec. 09 2005,1:28)]Thanks for the clarification.



Any commment on increasing/decreasing the load while on PCT?

No prob.


Not anything that would contribute to the discussion, most of what I've studied is more in the microscopic realm, wanna talk hormonal action on satellite cells? Seriously, PCT isn't my thing. You guys have fun.

 

[Conciliator]

Yeah, I took a look at that first study and what I said above seems to be the case: From the second to last paragraph:

"However, there remain other possibilities of actions by which creatine may have an anabolic effect, explaining the observed phenomena of increased hypertrophy in resistance-training athletes. First, because creatine increases force development as a result of increases in muscle phosphocreatine stores (12, 18), work output (possibly scaling with ATP turnover or force-time integral, or Ca2+ availability) during training could be increased during creatine supplementation, causing a greater than normal stimulus to muscle anabolism, with a subsequent benefit to muscle accretion. We would not have been able to detect such an effect in an acute study. Second, stimulation of transcriptional changes in muscle gene expression might occur as a result of increased availability of creatine (and associated ATP/ADP concentration or Ca2 concentration changes during or after contractile activity), the results of which, in terms of protein accretion, would not be seen for days to weeks after the initial stimuli."

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Exactly, and this is what many people do not realize, what creatine really does.

Although there is some work looking at satellite cells and creatine, mostly proliferation which is all well and good but without donation they are just increased in the pool and wait there.