5*5 vs HST
- Thread starter kinggrub
- Start date
Lifting N Tx
New Member
Honestly I think that this is mostly myth, due to old-style bodybuilding thinking that higher reps builds size, lower reps strength. Maybe there's a bit more type I (slow-twitch) fiber stimulus in the higher rep phases of HST and more type II (fast-twitch) from the 5 rep range.
However, I think the idea that getting stronger won't make you bigger and getting bigger won't make you stronger is just wrong. Some elite lifters who greatly restrict calories and lift mostly in the 1-3 rep ranges may get stronger but not much bigger, mostly from neural adaptation. They don't want to gain weight, and already have most of the muscle they can carry at their competition weight, and are probably adding only small strength gains as they are near their maximum potential.
For pretty much everyone else, I think bigger=stronger and stronger=bigger, provided diet is adequate to support muscle growth.
However, I think the idea that getting stronger won't make you bigger and getting bigger won't make you stronger is just wrong. Some elite lifters who greatly restrict calories and lift mostly in the 1-3 rep ranges may get stronger but not much bigger, mostly from neural adaptation. They don't want to gain weight, and already have most of the muscle they can carry at their competition weight, and are probably adding only small strength gains as they are near their maximum potential.
For pretty much everyone else, I think bigger=stronger and stronger=bigger, provided diet is adequate to support muscle growth.
5x5 has less progression than an HST cycle, you are working with heavier weights right off so you have less time to progress up to your max. In my experience, both are great for size AND strength, assuming you eat enough. I prefer HST because it is easier to stretch the cycle out for a much longer period before you have to deload/SD. The deload/SD comes at you a lot quicker with 5x5.
Hm. I've never done the 5x5's yet, but it sure sounds like a good way to get a quick cycle in if you needed to. One question about it though. If I did say, all 13 of my exersizes with 5x5, my workout would be probably 2 hours long! It's about 1-1/2 hours long now!
I suppose I could cut all arm movements, (which I've cut half of lately) and just use one exersize for each muscle group. I've not seen the official 5x5 workout; there seems to be so many variations. What I'd want to do would be still hypertrophy, so I'd think that I'd need to do a 10 rep mesocycle first, then hit the 5x5?
(Okay, that was a lot of questions)
I suppose I could cut all arm movements, (which I've cut half of lately) and just use one exersize for each muscle group. I've not seen the official 5x5 workout; there seems to be so many variations. What I'd want to do would be still hypertrophy, so I'd think that I'd need to do a 10 rep mesocycle first, then hit the 5x5?
(Okay, that was a lot of questions)
For 5x5, it's best if you focus on three lifts as in the default setup. Bench, Row and Squat. On Weds, you can do other stuff like deads, chins and military press instead, or something similar. I don't recommend any arm work, though you can do a couple sets if you want. With five sets of rows and five sets of bench, I don't think it is necessary to do curls or anything.
9to5lifter
New Member
Lately, my HST cycles during post-5's look a lot like 5x5 anyway. When the weight is really heavy, my routine consists of only 3-4 exercises, 4-5 (working) sets each. No isolations at all (well, maybe abs now and then) and I increment when I can. This is done of course in an attempt to extend the cycle, working with heavy weights for longer. So, at this stage, there aren't really many differences between HST and 5x5. As I said, when things get pretty heavy, my routine naturally "transforms" into something that closely resembles 5x5. When I can't perform 5 reps any longer, I may use sets of 3 reps, along with clustering and Max-Stim for fatigue management.
Consequently, for me there is no real debate over which type of routine is "better". Even with 5x5 and Max-Stim, you are still using HST principles (frequency, progression etc.). When you stop growing or your joints are screaming, it's time for SD and then you start over with lighter weights again (15's and 10's) to allow for some healing to take place (joints, CNS etc.). As much as I believe in extending the HST cycles with heavier weights, I also believe that you can't "go heavy" all the time, because in the end you'll get injured.
Regards,
Dimitris
Consequently, for me there is no real debate over which type of routine is "better". Even with 5x5 and Max-Stim, you are still using HST principles (frequency, progression etc.). When you stop growing or your joints are screaming, it's time for SD and then you start over with lighter weights again (15's and 10's) to allow for some healing to take place (joints, CNS etc.). As much as I believe in extending the HST cycles with heavier weights, I also believe that you can't "go heavy" all the time, because in the end you'll get injured.
Regards,
Dimitris
My 5x5 and HST plans start and end at about the same weight with about the same progression as the end result. Each gave me a small increase in strength at the end of the training cycle (only doing "mini 5x5's". The size results of 5x5, I cannot attest to because I'm just starting my first real 5x5. I do know that it helps with strength gains beause I ended my first HST cycle with 5x5 and my second with 5x3. The first was more successful. I expect my "real" 5x5 to be about as effective as HST because the overall progression is similar, just no variation in reps.
My typical 5X5 workout:
M
DB Incline Bench press
Military Press
T
Pull Up
Squat
TH
Dips
Shrugs
F
Chin up
Deadlift
M
DB Incline Bench press
Military Press
T
Pull Up
Squat
TH
Dips
Shrugs
F
Chin up
Deadlift
<div>
(quadancer @ Nov. 22 2006,17:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">How would you run that for a 3 day system?</div>
You really couldn't run it as a three day routine. For a three day routine I would probably do an ABA routine, utilizing a 3X5 or 4X4 set/rep scheme, using maximal weights, such as:
A
Squats
Pull ups
Incline Bench
Miltary Press
B
Deadlifts
Chin ups
Dips
Shrugs
You could still do it as 5X5 routine but I personally prefer to keep my volume on the low side and intensity high. Hence I have lowered the total reps for the week to approximately the same as the first program.
(quadancer @ Nov. 22 2006,17:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">How would you run that for a 3 day system?</div>
You really couldn't run it as a three day routine. For a three day routine I would probably do an ABA routine, utilizing a 3X5 or 4X4 set/rep scheme, using maximal weights, such as:
A
Squats
Pull ups
Incline Bench
Miltary Press
B
Deadlifts
Chin ups
Dips
Shrugs
You could still do it as 5X5 routine but I personally prefer to keep my volume on the low side and intensity high. Hence I have lowered the total reps for the week to approximately the same as the first program.
Here is a 3 day a week 5x5 program.
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Periodized_5x5.htm
I don't know how to attach a file on this forum, so I cannot give you the spreadsheet to calculate your workouts with.
Let's use the squat for an example for how to set it up without the spreadsheet to do the work for you.
Say you are a 200lb squatter and want to be a 210lb squatter. Similar to HST, you'll work backwards in 10lb increments from 210 for 24-28 workouts.
Your first two weeks would look like this:
Workout 1
75x5, 85x5, 95x5, 105x5, 115x5
Workout 2
85x5, 95x5, 105x5, 115x5, 125x5
Workout 3
95x5, 105x5, 115x5, 125x5, 135x5
Workout 4
85x5, 95x5, 105x5, 115,5, 125x5
Workout 5
95x5, 105x5, 115x5, 125x5, 135x5
Workout 6
105x5, 115x5, 125x5, 135x5, 145x5
The progression is different from HST in that you add weight for 3 workouts, drop down a little then add for 3 more workouts...repeat until your old 1RM is now your 5RM.
Where in HST we add weight EACH workout for 2 weeks straight then drop down as we move into a new rep period.
Often you will find that the weight on the first & last workout of HST and the weight on the first & last workout of 5x5 will be the same.
5x5, like HST is really something that you can tweak slightly to suit your own needs, but don't tweak it too much or you will end up overtrained.
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Periodized_5x5.htm
I don't know how to attach a file on this forum, so I cannot give you the spreadsheet to calculate your workouts with.
Let's use the squat for an example for how to set it up without the spreadsheet to do the work for you.
Say you are a 200lb squatter and want to be a 210lb squatter. Similar to HST, you'll work backwards in 10lb increments from 210 for 24-28 workouts.
Your first two weeks would look like this:
Workout 1
75x5, 85x5, 95x5, 105x5, 115x5
Workout 2
85x5, 95x5, 105x5, 115x5, 125x5
Workout 3
95x5, 105x5, 115x5, 125x5, 135x5
Workout 4
85x5, 95x5, 105x5, 115,5, 125x5
Workout 5
95x5, 105x5, 115x5, 125x5, 135x5
Workout 6
105x5, 115x5, 125x5, 135x5, 145x5
The progression is different from HST in that you add weight for 3 workouts, drop down a little then add for 3 more workouts...repeat until your old 1RM is now your 5RM.
Where in HST we add weight EACH workout for 2 weeks straight then drop down as we move into a new rep period.
Often you will find that the weight on the first & last workout of HST and the weight on the first & last workout of 5x5 will be the same.
5x5, like HST is really something that you can tweak slightly to suit your own needs, but don't tweak it too much or you will end up overtrained.
Peak_Power
New Member
That's its following HSt principles, just you start in the 5s, and use assending sets, but the progression and frequency are still there.
I might try that next cycle, 2 weeks of 15s, 2 weeks of 10s, then a 5x5 program using that increasing weight each set, instead of the usual 3x5 progressing weight each workout.
I might try that next cycle, 2 weeks of 15s, 2 weeks of 10s, then a 5x5 program using that increasing weight each set, instead of the usual 3x5 progressing weight each workout.
<div>
(vagrant @ Nov. 22 2006,20:02)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The progression is different from HST in that you add weight for 3 workouts, drop down a little then add for 3 more workouts...repeat until your old 1RM is now your 5RM.
Where in HST we add weight EACH workout for 2 weeks straight then drop down as we move into a new rep period.</div>
Gotcha Vagrant. An 'up pyramid' each workout with one zigzag in the whole cycle. Now I understand it.
Unlike most of the HST'ers, I add weight each workout for 2 weeks, then keep adding thru the tens, fives and beyond. Simply because it's kept me closer to the strength curve (linear progression), and that has helped me when I miss workouts: I don't suffer much of a setback when I come back after, say 3 days off.
I'm not sure how this will hit me with a 5x5 system (if I miss any workouts), but I suppose I could skip the zigzag part here too, if I need to, and feel strong enough to keep progressing. It might be nice to be doing pyramids again, only without the down (useless) sets to fatigue me.
Of course, I realize, as O&G pointed out, that I'll have to trim off any iso's or single movements in order to lower the workout time. So I'm thinking about 3x/week using:
squats
pulldowns into weighted pullups
d/b presses (switching from palms facing to Zlottman style; palms forward, then facing at the top)
leg curls or deads
cable rows or I may build a T-bar
Overhead presses of some type
My second thought is to do arms on offdays, 3x a week, HST style, maybe narrow dips alternated with skullz, and d/b curls alternated or combined with hammers. And shrugs.
Any critiques? (I'm presently nearing deload, maybe in a week or so.)
(vagrant @ Nov. 22 2006,20:02)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The progression is different from HST in that you add weight for 3 workouts, drop down a little then add for 3 more workouts...repeat until your old 1RM is now your 5RM.
Where in HST we add weight EACH workout for 2 weeks straight then drop down as we move into a new rep period.</div>
Gotcha Vagrant. An 'up pyramid' each workout with one zigzag in the whole cycle. Now I understand it.
Unlike most of the HST'ers, I add weight each workout for 2 weeks, then keep adding thru the tens, fives and beyond. Simply because it's kept me closer to the strength curve (linear progression), and that has helped me when I miss workouts: I don't suffer much of a setback when I come back after, say 3 days off.
I'm not sure how this will hit me with a 5x5 system (if I miss any workouts), but I suppose I could skip the zigzag part here too, if I need to, and feel strong enough to keep progressing. It might be nice to be doing pyramids again, only without the down (useless) sets to fatigue me.
Of course, I realize, as O&G pointed out, that I'll have to trim off any iso's or single movements in order to lower the workout time. So I'm thinking about 3x/week using:
squats
pulldowns into weighted pullups
d/b presses (switching from palms facing to Zlottman style; palms forward, then facing at the top)
leg curls or deads
cable rows or I may build a T-bar
Overhead presses of some type
My second thought is to do arms on offdays, 3x a week, HST style, maybe narrow dips alternated with skullz, and d/b curls alternated or combined with hammers. And shrugs.
Any critiques? (I'm presently nearing deload, maybe in a week or so.)
That's because I'm thinking of continuing the rest of this HST cycle out and after deload, doing a pure 5x5 program, which of course, will be too much for arms.
I read the article after I posted my idea, and although I was close in to it, there are a lot of details to the master program I didn't know and still don't understand here in my 3:00 a.m. insomnia. More study later.
I'm liking the idea of a more pure, less foofoo workout. Nothing but simple compounds to worry about. I may just take to this yet.
I read the article after I posted my idea, and although I was close in to it, there are a lot of details to the master program I didn't know and still don't understand here in my 3:00 a.m. insomnia. More study later.
I'm liking the idea of a more pure, less foofoo workout. Nothing but simple compounds to worry about. I may just take to this yet.
Quaddancer, the way you mentioned doing HST constantly progressing...I did that my first time because I couldn't grasp the thought of reducing my weight I was working with when dropping from the 15's to the 10's or the 10's to the 5's. Then I just did 5x5 for the last month, again with the steady progression. I gained more during that first HST cycle than ever (but overtrained and got hurt for my trouble). I did pretty good my second cycle but not nearly as well.
If one can tolerate the constant increasing load without overtraining then they will certainly grow on it. That's the beauty of HST and 5x5...no overtraining because deloading is built into both programs.
I'm on my first "real" 5x5 for a full training cycle. I'll share how it goes or doesn't go when I'm done.
I'm afraid though that if one doesn't zigzag or deload then overtraining is a real risk. Think about the stress on the body from anything that takes your 1RM and turns it into your 5RM in only 8 weeks.
If one can tolerate the constant increasing load without overtraining then they will certainly grow on it. That's the beauty of HST and 5x5...no overtraining because deloading is built into both programs.
I'm on my first "real" 5x5 for a full training cycle. I'll share how it goes or doesn't go when I'm done.
I'm afraid though that if one doesn't zigzag or deload then overtraining is a real risk. Think about the stress on the body from anything that takes your 1RM and turns it into your 5RM in only 8 weeks.
Point taken, bro. But I remind you that I have this little 'system' of the yellow marker. Whenever I hit too much advance, and cannot get, say, my 3 sets of 6 in...maybe I did 6,5,4 or something, I highlight it in yellow and rework that weight next workout, and almost always get it the next time. That slows the progress a bit, yet keeps me under the failure curve. (just)
The only downsides of this method (linear progression) I see are that there are NO easy workouts past the 15's (oh my!) and with 11-13 exersizes, and a few minutes rest between sets, I'm in my gym 1-1/2 hours. Still easier than failure training if you ask me.
A new problem I just encountered that I didn't have before is uneveness. Yesterday, I failed again with inclined d/b presses at 104lbs. and did even worse than the workout before, when I first failed the reps. So evidently I've hit the wall there. But I hit 115 with them last cycle, so I'm getting weaker? It may be an energy fluke, but I'll try them again tomorrow at 104 and if I fail again, have to switch to something else, because the rest of me is doing just fine with the continuing fives.
I'm very interested in watching your 5x5 cycle. You starting with any 10's or just jumping into the big stuff?
The only downsides of this method (linear progression) I see are that there are NO easy workouts past the 15's (oh my!) and with 11-13 exersizes, and a few minutes rest between sets, I'm in my gym 1-1/2 hours. Still easier than failure training if you ask me.
A new problem I just encountered that I didn't have before is uneveness. Yesterday, I failed again with inclined d/b presses at 104lbs. and did even worse than the workout before, when I first failed the reps. So evidently I've hit the wall there. But I hit 115 with them last cycle, so I'm getting weaker? It may be an energy fluke, but I'll try them again tomorrow at 104 and if I fail again, have to switch to something else, because the rest of me is doing just fine with the continuing fives.
I'm very interested in watching your 5x5 cycle. You starting with any 10's or just jumping into the big stuff?
I just started two days ago. All 5's. Doing ramped sets, but not the "big stuff" yet. My squats were like this
75x5, 85x5, 95x5, 105x5, 115x5. Today I'll ramp my sets and end on 125x5, next time 135x5 and so on. At the end of 8 weeks, I'll end my final workout with 10lbs more than I was able to get 5 reps with when my last training cycle ended.
The beauty of HST and 5x5 for me is the chance to start out light and work up to the heavy instead of just going heavy all the time. After 3 weeks off for unwanted deconditioning even the light weights seem to be rather effective.
Yesterday being Thanksgiving with that big 17lb turkey that my little girl shot on the table along with creamed corn, yeast rolls, green beans, deviled eggs, yougrt protein pie, potatoes, gravy... My glycogen stores are fully loaded and ready for some work.
75x5, 85x5, 95x5, 105x5, 115x5. Today I'll ramp my sets and end on 125x5, next time 135x5 and so on. At the end of 8 weeks, I'll end my final workout with 10lbs more than I was able to get 5 reps with when my last training cycle ended.
The beauty of HST and 5x5 for me is the chance to start out light and work up to the heavy instead of just going heavy all the time. After 3 weeks off for unwanted deconditioning even the light weights seem to be rather effective.
Yesterday being Thanksgiving with that big 17lb turkey that my little girl shot on the table along with creamed corn, yeast rolls, green beans, deviled eggs, yougrt protein pie, potatoes, gravy... My glycogen stores are fully loaded and ready for some work.
