A Different Way Of Employing Hst...?

Discussion in 'Training Logs' started by wungun, Jan 10, 2015.

  1. wungun

    wungun Member

    Looking at the vanilla HST routine, it would seem to me that doing 3 separate "mini cycles" of the typical 15,10,5 reps is a bit inefficient, with regards to load progression....
    I would think a better way might be to stick with one Rep range cycle, for example the 10 Rep range, and start off like you'd normally do, working up to your 10rm by the end of week two.
    But then instead of going into the 5's and starting off at 60% of your 5rm, keep the 10's progressing. For example, on bench, instead of stopping at 10rm, add on another 5lbs (whatever your increment is/was) and Rep out to your max, whatever it might be.
    Next time on bench, another 5lbs, and continue this progression until you hit your 5rm or keep going to 3rm or 1rm!
    I would think this would get you a 5 week block... Maybe more...
    Then SD and start over again with the 10's, but 5lbs higher.

    Thoughts?

    Gonna try this out this cycle
     
  2. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    There's a word for this already ... periodisation. Go have Google fun with it ?
     
  3. wungun

    wungun Member

  4. wungun

    wungun Member

    So... Is there a forum out there for that? Lol
    Obviously you must see the parallels with HST... Why would you think one program would be better than the other?
     
  5. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Do you need a specific forum for periodisation?

    Search on these forums for discussions circa 2004-2007 (if memory serves). Aaron (Aaron_F maybe?) used to contribute a fair bit.

    If not, there's the entire internet.

    Start w/powerliftingtowin.com , or Lyle McDonald's forums. Mark Bell is a little wired but highly relevant as well (to name just a few).
     
  6. TangoDown

    TangoDown Member

    "Try it out this cycle"

    Did you finish your last cycle (first cycle of HST you did)? If I remember correctly, you were indicating that you were going to stop somewhere during the 10s or 15s due to illness.
     
  7. wungun

    wungun Member

    Jester.... That was a rhetorical question. ;)
    Tango... I ended up sick twice this season! Did full 15's, and 10's broken up into 2 blocks. Lol
    I am at the end of my 10rm now.
    My thinking is that for the first (maybe) 4 exercise days in each mini block, you're not really accomplishing much (maybe progressive signalling and avoiding rbe).... That's 12 exercise days out of a total of 24 (50%) that you're not anywhere near your rm.
    If I go 6 weeks with this hst/periodization method, that 24 exercise days with only 4 not near effective rm....
     
  8. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    All you are really talking about is eliminating zig zag. Many of us who cluster or whatever instead of using reps/sets already do this. You start at a certain % of your 1 RM for each lift and just keep steady progression throughout the cycle. I wouldn't do what you are saying and start out in the 10s though. Instead, just choose a total rep target and let that total rep target self regulate itself so that it drops as the loads get higher, until at the end of the cycle, you are doing clusters of 3 reps at a time or whatever ends up working.
     
  9. wungun

    wungun Member

    I was going to mention clustered...
    So in the beginning I'd be doing 2 sets of 10. When I get into the heavy shit, it might look like 4 sets of 5, 10 sets of 2's....
     
  10. mickc1965

    mickc1965 Well-Known Member

    @wungun,

    You are not supposed to start at 60% of your 5rm or was that a typo?
     
  11. wungun

    wungun Member

    Well, it's more like 70%, and go up 5% each exercise day until you hit your max.
    My point was, you start each micro cycle lifting far less effect weight.
     
  12. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    It would be more like a cluster of 13 reps or so + a cluster of 7 reps in the earlier part of the cycle. In the heavier stuff, it might look more like a cluster of 6 + 4 + 3 + 2. Lose the idea of sets. You are just getting as many reps as you can, listening to your body and RPE in order to know when to terminate the cluster, resting enough time prior to starting the next cluster, then repeating the process.
     
  13. mickc1965

    mickc1965 Well-Known Member

    Should be a minimum of 75%

    That's why I start at around 90% of rep max for 10 and 5 rep blocks with 4 increments per rep block and this also avoids overlaps
     
  14. wungun

    wungun Member

    4 increments... Cool. So you increase basically every other exercise day...?

    Totz, from what I understand of clusters, it's short rest between "sets".
    The way I want to employ it is to takes as many "sets" or rests to complete my total reps, regards of the weight.
    So wh3n you're in the 5 Rep range, you're still targeting 13 reps?
     
  15. mickc1965

    mickc1965 Well-Known Member

    Not exactly train 6 days a week with 3 different routines so routine A on days 1 and 4, B on days 2 and 5 etc

    In respect of the term 'clusters' I tend to use clusters with the same rest period between sets as I would normally take but to achieve a total rep count regardless of number of 'sets'. If I use short periods of rest (10, 20 seconds) then I would term this as myo reps.
     
  16. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Clusters don't dictate how much rest you take. Rest between clusters is going to be dependent on your condition that day and what % of your 1 RM you are using. You should never use extremely rigid rest times between sets or clusters because you never know what you are going to be capable of that day. Conversely, you shouldn't be too lax with rest either because you don't want to be that guy leaving your water bottle on the piece of equipment you are using to keep it reserved while you're busy talking with people about meaningless crap while I'm giving you the death stare from across the gym because you've tied up the only rack in the gym for over 45 minutes now and have only done maybe 10 reps total. Rest is highly variable and is something that requires you learning about your body and being in tune with it, so you know if you are having a good day where you can pound it hard or if you are a little off today and need to take it a little easier. Don't dictate rest and don't get too tied up on it.

    What clusters mean is, rather than doing traditional sets where you stop at an arbitrary rep count regardless of what your effort was, you instead are doing as many reps as you can, stopping before failure, then resting adequately before starting the next cluster. The next cluster, you do as many reps as you can, stopping before failure. Etc etc. So if you are in your "10s" then you normally would stop at 10 reps each set. If you cluster, you will keep going until you feel failure creeping on, which depending onj what load you are using might be 14 or 15 reps. Maybe you're having a bad day and you only get 9. That's fine, whatever you get you keep track of, you rack the weight and rest, then when you are ready you will begin the next cluster and just get as many reps as you can. Usually you get less reps on every subsequent cluster, so this time you only get 9 or 10, and you're goal is to hit 30 reps today so you know you have to get at 5-7 more reps next cluster.
    The idea is that you set your total rep target i.e. your total volume for that exercise and you just do as many clusters as necessary to get to that total rep count. You don't use sets at all. So there are no 15s, 10s or 5s, there is only what % of your 1 RM you are currently at and your target volume. You start the cycle at a certain % of your 1RM and you just keep progressing every workout session until you are tapped out. This can last for many weeks depending on how aggressive you are with the progression.

    I generally take it a step further and make my rep target a range instead of a hard number so I can adjust based on how I feel that day. Also, obviously, you want total volume to go down as loads go up. You aren't going to get the same number of reps with 90% of your 1 RM as you can get with 70% of your 1 RM. Keep in mind that this method as a whole requires you to use common sense in dealing with your body because no two days are going to be exactly the same. Some people can't deal with a flexible workout routine and need something more rigid or they can't stay on track. So it's a safe assumption that generally this method is only for more advanced people.
     
  17. leonardopm

    leonardopm Member

    So, after reading your explanation I realized I misunderstood the clustering concept. I always thought I should bang reps until failure and then proceed with clustering to fulfill the volume required. I overlooked an extreme important factor that is RPE (or any other fatigue diagnosis method one may use).

    Yesterday I did clustering the right way and it felt really well. Stopped before failure in all lifts. Training without reaching failure has clear advantages IMO. Lots of energy, better form, no sickness, etc. The latter exercises are also better performed due to lower fatigue levels. I always found the 2nd week of 10s the most exhausting and with clustering I had a great workout yesterday.
     
  18. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    The biggest benefit to clustering (aside from it being a lot easier to set up the cycle) is the fact that you can regulate volume. Just set your rep total as a range and on days you are feeling strong, go for the top end of the range. On days you aren't feeling well or are tired, aim for the bottom of the range.

    Glad to hear it worked for you. Clustering really shines when things get heavy, in my opinion. Toward the end of the rep range and when you get toward the end of the cycle especially. When things are lighter, you can also employ myo-reps style rest periods, activation sets, etc if you really want to. Myo-reps is basically just a specialized form of clustering/rest-pause that allows you to get the most out of lighter loads.
     
  19. leonardopm

    leonardopm Member

    Indeed. That's another huge benefit I didn't realized earlier. It has been always a hassle to choose between 10 or 20 reps total, or whatever combination of sets and reps. It's a perfect approach for my current point in the cycle. The first week on 10's easily allows 2 x 10 reps on every lift but on the second week sometimes I find it too much (and 1 x 10 may be too low). When clustering I could set up a range of 15-20 total reps, and go for it. Really excellent.
     
  20. mickc1965

    mickc1965 Well-Known Member

    Or you could just add another cluster to complete the 20 reps, I tend to use Prilepins Table (see quote below) to try and determine the number of total reps required per muscle group at a given % of 1rm to give balanced workouts, admittedly this may not be 100% accurate but it seemed to work for me, this was based on training full body 5 / 6 days per week (3 day on 1 day off) giving a weekly INOL of between 3.125 and 3.75 - not using this system at the moment but will return to training each muscle group 3 times per week in a month or so with this system to manage fatigue (supposedly), will be aiming in the 15s block for 45 reps reducing progressively down to 35, 10s block will be 33 reps down to 25 and 5s block will be 22 reps down to 12.

     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2015
    Browner likes this.

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