Any Actual Significant Physiologica Differences In...

Discussion in 'Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST)' started by NWlifter, Oct 28, 2017.

  1. NWlifter

    NWlifter Member

    Comparing two different two week blocks with arbitrary loads for illustration

    Say 10RM is 100 lbs

    Classic
    workouts
    1-75x10
    2-80x10
    3-85x10
    4-90x10
    5-95x10
    6- 100x10

    vs
    workouts
    1-100x5
    2-100x6
    3-100x7
    4-100x8
    5-100x9
    6- 100x10

    Lots of the newer studies show differing loads have about the same hypertrophic effect if recruitment/effort are equalized, thinking maybe that's the increment that 'counts' with HST, each successive workout is 'more' than the last in those areas. Seems like both would have a similar increase in effort/recruitment/fatigue with each successive workout.
     
  2. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Active Member

    Ah great post, a really interesting thought...

    I guess in the first case the TUT is the same for each session, but the level of activation/tension increases each time. The second plan has the same tension, but increasing TUT meaning that more and more fibers would be called into play in each subsequent session (am just summarising it for myself really hehe).

    Both are approaching full activation (ie failure), but I don't know what the effect of each one would be and how they differ... It seems as though both would have pretty similar effects, because both show a type of similar progression, and that being increments towards fiber recruitment (but different pathways to get there, tension increases vs volume/TUT increases)

    Am very interested to see what others think (and am just excited about a new thread XD)
     
  3. NWlifter

    NWlifter Member

    that's what I was thinking too,... both have a similar recruitment/activation progression, both end in an 'almost or to failure' with that same RM for the last workout...
    With those newer studies about load, I'm thinking load is a means to an end, rather than 'the' key... So progressive load is important but why it's important might be as a co-factor...
     
  4. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Active Member

    Yeah that makes alot of sense, especially in light of alot of the occlusion studies etc. Definitely seems to be a combo of mechanical strain that triggers signalling for growth as well as metabolic factors (both of which have been talked about as being crucial anyways), but would to hear Bryan's input on this.

    Because muscle doesn't know what's being lifted but just reacts accordingly based on local conditions (whether it's progressively increased load/tension or increased volume/TUT to get to the same place), I'd imagine there would be similar ways to get to the same location hey! I guess what is trying to be achieved within a muscle is the key to thing hey.. fascinating
     
  5. NWlifter

    NWlifter Member

    Good thoughts....
    I'm thinking a person could do a version of HST that doesn't require super heavy loads, I think the loadxreps= stimulation, or load and time.. like those TTI studies. Which means, one could still do some kind of progressive ramp in stimulation but not have to risk their poor old injured body parts with high loads....
     
  6. NWlifter

    NWlifter Member

    BTW, this is cool having a discussion on here... I sure miss the activity on this forum, so many good minds in one place, no meat head type talk lol
     
  7. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Active Member

    Yeah I'd be very interested in that, I reckon myoreps is pretty close with that actually, the loads range from 9RM to 25RM and it's so we'll thought out and makes total sense... and it mimics the occlusion effect without having to wrap yourself up. I've started a HST cycle with myoreps and it's going well. I've had a few injuries in the past so I'm wary of using heavy heavy movements.. but it's good to know that lighter weights are a definite option and can get the same results!

    YES totally agree, I miss it too, it's a great place to discuss all things training without worrying about being shot down haha. Yeah hopefully a few more join in but I guess other priorities pop up. At the moment I'm just really having fun with training and its great exploring different systems and putting different theories into practice :)
     
  8. NWlifter

    NWlifter Member

    How do you set up with myo reps and have the progressive steps like HST has? I'm not super familiar with myoreps actually. It's like clusters?

    Yes, here you can get a real discusion going in an intelligent manner, anywhere else you get the 'duhhhh just lift and eat'. Sure ok! We'll just quit doing hypertrophy research, lol
     
  9. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Active Member

    Hahaha so true!

    Ah I highly highly recommend myoreps, it's pretty much what we've been talking about, using lighter loads to achieve the same activation as heavier loads. Like clusters but different, it's a way of getting in more effective reps by managing fatigue and doing more reps in the pointy zone of a set. It mimics occlusion by not have full ROM reps (maybe 10% cutoff, not fully extended or all the way to the bottom) and keeps constant tension on the muscle during the reps.

    It's worth reading through this and there are plenty more places myoreps is detailed too, with outlines of progression etc:

    http://borgefagerli.com/myo-reps-in-english/

    (Even reading Borge's responses to all comments are quite insightful too!)

    Here is a section from the page but yeah I recommend reading it for sure:

    "Pick a load you can perform 9-20 reps with (depending on your programming and exercise selection). I will sometimes go even higher, to 25-40 reps. (Edit 2016: I will normally select 30% loads – of 1RM – for beginners, 40% loads for intermediates and more advanced lifters, 50% loads for advanced/elite).Go to failure or 1-2 reps short of failure, judged by when rep speed slows noticeably. This is your “activation set” where you achieve full fiber recruitment. Total failure isn’t an absolute requirement, and leaving a rep or two in the tank will allow you to do more total reps, as we shall see soon.By keeping constant tension on the muscle, i.e. shorten the ROM by 10% on top (avoid locking out the weight) and 10% in the bottom (resting the weight or overstretching the muscle), you will mimic the occlusion effect and reach higher fiber recruitment faster.Now the important part – rerack the weight and rest for (edit 2016: 3-5 deep breaths) – unrack the weight and keep going for up to 3-5 short mini-sets of 3-5 reps (staying close to failure on each mini-set). By keeping the rest period short you will maintain fatigue level, and hence – fiber recruitment at a high rate. All reps of the mini-set are now “effective” reps. I simplify the rest period prescription by counting deep breaths, similar to the DC method, where 3 deep breaths (in+out) is about 6-8 seconds, 5 is 10-15 seconds. You can get away with the higher end (30secs) with heavier loads, at lighter loads you should keep rest periods short (5-15secs) to maintain high fiber recruitment. It is also productive on the Myo-rep series to keep constant tension on the muscle by shortening the ROM. (edit 2016: I rarely use heavy Myo-rep training nowadays, it is far more productive as a metabolic/pump-type stimulus).End the Myo-rep set when you lose 1 rep from the initial or 5 mini-sets. Example (all correct):
    20 +4+4+4+3
    22 +3+3+3+3+3
    18 +5+4
    Incorrect:
    20 +4+4+4+3+3
    22 +3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3+3
    18 +5+4+3+2"


    I also started a thread about it recently too if interested:

    thinkmuscle.com/community/threads/hst-myoreps.43425/

    But yeah I'd definitely look into it, it's a really fun way of training and its easy to keep it in a HST cycle/format, many people here prefer myoreps instead of straight sets for their cycles. Cuts your workouts really short too!

    In terms of progression you can either progress via increasing total reps done or %wise of load

    Week 1: 60% 20-25 reps
    Week 2: 65% 15-20 reps
    Week 3: 70% 12-15 reps

    I think what I did my first cycle was this (basically increasing loads every session where I could, and it didn't really matter about rep phases. The first numbers 20-25 etc was the activation set reps, and second was total reps in the minisets):

    Week 0 (prep week, non-myoreps sets)
    Week 1 20-25+20/25 (5rep minisets)
    Week 2 15-20+15/20 (5rep)
    Week 3 15-20+15 (5rep)
    Week 4 10-15+15 (3-4rep)
    Week 5 10-15+15 (3-4rep)
    Week 6 5-10+10/15 (2-3rep)
    Week 7 5-10+10 (2-3rep or cluster)
    Week 8 cluster/max-stim
    Week 9 cluster/max-stim
    Deload

    I do remember when I did this though I pushed myself too hard and got quite fatigued/injured/sick haha but I tend to do that, so in my current cycle of myoreps I'm doing I'm reeeeeally focusing on autoregulation and not pushing myself too hard, and using intuition as to when to stop, and not think 'I have to reach x amount of reps!!!' Feels so much more natural this way of training, because you're listening to the body's current capabilities and recovery which change from day to day.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2017
  10. NWlifter

    NWlifter Member

    Ah ok thanks!
    So you still use load increments like HST but just do your sets 'myo' style then?
    But one can use lighter actual loads then......
    I have a lot of sore injuries, so that might work better for me. 5-6RM's are pretty precarious for many of my joints/tendons.

    Thanks for all the info.!
     
  11. NWlifter

    NWlifter Member

    Thanks for the links, read all those. :)
    * I'm seeing a lot of 'burnout' warnings though with myo reps 3x a week,

    * I guess I have accidentally done myoreps many times, I usually just thought of them as non failure rest pause I'd do a set almost to failure, take 5 breaths, do more reps to 'almost failure', take 5 breaths, etc. I have done that all the way back as far as the 1980's.I used to write it in my workout notebooks like Bench 170x8 +4 +2

    I even noticed back then it was easy to burn out on that format.

    Interesting (to me) on this idea (fatigue, load, etc.) I'm 52 and very hard gainer, this last year I trained standard heavy progressive style. I gained a little here and there, up and down, but overall not much. This past summer I did one of Vince Gironda's methods, 3x8 with 30 second rest and much lighter loads. Example. Pre Vince routine I was benching 180x8, when I started 3x8 I started with 105 for 3x8 and those short 30 second rests. I worked up over the summer to I think about 140 for 3x8 (similar progress on all other exercises), and I gained size ever time I measured and over all made some great gains. And this is with much lighter loads. After that, I went back to lower volume heavier training and over the last two months, I re-gained back my RM strength, yet lost most of the size I had gained on the lighter stuff.
    In essence, that 3x8 routine is similar to light myo-reps except only has one 'almost failure' point at the end of the last set. I'm thinking if myo-reps are so powerful that people burn out, maybe just one or two mini-sets would be enough, especially if one did them 3x per week. ( I did the Vince routine at 2x per week per muscle).
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2017
  12. NWlifter

    NWlifter Member

    One more babble...

    First, HST obviously works, if you go through the 'Your results with HST' thread, there is a lot of success in there...

    What bugs me...

    Is why it works, according to those newer studies that plague my brain. Where almost any RM taken to failure or close has the same hypertrophic effects.
    So in essence, 6 reps with a 6RM is the same as 15 reps with a 15RM.

    If that's true, then each 2 week block is the same. Just moving from a 10RM to a 5RM isn't an increase in stimulation if the set volume is the same.

    Yet HST works....if it's not load, then why.. how...

    If I think about what is happening during a 2 week block, you start out with an easy workout, doing say 10 reps with a good amount less than your 10RM , then output rises a little higher each workout until your at full out on the last workout. So it's kinda like a two week 'intensity' ramp. I wonder if a person just did that with the same RM, and maybe a small compensatory load increase to match strength gains, thus maintaining that actual RM load, over and over for 3-4 two week blocks, if results would be the same? Of if they used myo reps, add one 'mini-set' every workout for two weeks?
    ---
    Example.
    mon 100x10
    wed 105x10
    fri 110x10
    mon 115x10
    wed 120x10
    fri 125x10 (full 10RM load)
    then
    Mon 102.5x10
    wed 107.5x10
    frid 112.5x10
    etc.
    -----
    Or myo rep intensity variation

    Mon 120x10
    wed 120x10 +4
    fri 120x10 + 4 +3
    mon 120x10 + 4 +3 +3
    wed 120x10 + 4 +3 +3 +2
    fri 120x10 + 4 +3 +3 +2 +1
     
  13. Old and Grey

    Old and Grey Super Moderator Staff Member

    I love myo reps and lighter weights. As we age, our connective tissues tend to dehydrate and heavy loads can lead to injury. Light myo reps can also cause injury if reps or sets are taken to extremes but it is likely that any resulting injury will be less than using loads in the 1-5 range.
     
  14. NWlifter

    NWlifter Member

    Thanks O&G, I've done, what I called rest pause in the past, which really is 'almost' myo-reps, save the less than full ROM, but always used heavier loads. I might try and set something up with lighter myo-reps and somehow HST-ify it.
    I agree, my tendons are probably jerky now a days lol
     
  15. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Active Member

    Ah no probs! Yep pretty much, although the last few months I've been quite unwell with pelvic issues, so my strength has gone right down and I have no idea what my RMs are, so I'm basically just starting with fairly light weight at the start of the cycle, and just increasing it 2.5-5kg every workout and just progressing linearly, until I reach roughly 6RM in which I will do more cluster sets than myoreps. I'm actually curious about other people's warm-up routines, I might start another thread as it seems to be an important part to prevent injuries (I've seen alot of different activation exercises and pre-training routines etc, and was wondering what others feel are the ways to prepare for light and heavy lifting).

    I'm also only doing myoreps for half the body (chest, shoulders, quads, and tris), and just normal sets for the other half (back, hamstrings, bis although am trying that dropset protocol with these, traps) then the next cycle I'll swap. Am doing this to ease myself back into training after a long layoff, don't wanna push myself too hard so am reeeeally focusing on the autoregulation aspect and on how I feel day to day. I do not wanna relapse! Haha

    Yeah burnout is a possibility, that's why I'm really getting more in tune with how I feel and how the set goes moment to moment. Also why I'm doing half myos and half normal. As long as you notice when rep speed is definitely altered and you stop the set then and there it should be fine, but everyone's recovery is different I guess. I'm 30 years old and some things I can really smash through and others just knock me out haha so I'm really enjoying learning about the body's capabilities and taking a much more holistic/internal approach to training and recovering rather than it being a clinical mechanical process like I've made it in the past. I really really love Borge's approach and attitude towards training, he has more well rounded and human view of it, and even notes that with alot of his clients, when they really implement autoregulation and training hard when they feel up to it and holding back alot when they're not feeling it, their results are dramatically better than those who just push it 115% all the time.

    And yeah that's pretty much myoreps you were doing haha that's really cool! Ah yeah Vince's stuff is cool, he can be quite out there but yeah that's really cool you've seen for yourself the benefits of lighter weights!

    Hmm yeah not too sure about 6 reps with a 6RM being the same as 15 reps with a 15RM. And I would think maybe that the stimulus increase may not be enough if you keep dropping the loads back and ramping to RM then dropping back again. I just wouldn't think the body would see much point in increasing dramatically in size as the tension sort of stays roughly the same for most of the cycle, with only every now and then it being higher mechanical tension stimulus. Just because it drops back alot of the time and its a biiiig zigzag, but honestly I have no idea and it's a fascinating concept...

    I do think hypertrophy is definitely a relative and contextual thing, both the 15RM and 6RM can cause hypertrophy, but it depends when and how over time that it's applied
     
  16. Old and Grey

    Old and Grey Super Moderator Staff Member

    Different reps done correctly hit different muscle fibers. In all cases, you definitely need a strength base to take maximum advantage of the higher rep myo style techniques.
     
  17. NWlifter

    NWlifter Member

    I can't say for sure that's right, but that's what the studies showed. That a light weight to failure is the same hypertrophic stimulus as a heavy weight to failure. Since muscle fibers display the same full tension when fully activated, it makes sense to me.
    there's this showing medium had actually more hypertrophy than heavy
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5131226/
    And then Brad's study showing light and heavy had pretty much the same hypertrophy
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25853914

    Here's Brad's article about his study
    http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/blog/does-light-load-training-build-muscle-in-experienced-lifters/

    Borge even talked to me a bit about this via email last spring, he said he pretty much doesn't bother recommending heavy anymore. Here is his edited/updated thoughts on this on his page about myoreps http://borgefagerli.com/myo-reps-in-english/

    All this also matches the studies on TTI I found many years ago and talked about on here.

    So 'if' that is right, then the last day of your 15's has the same stimulation level as the last day of your 5's. Which is why I was thinking, it's not the loads going up over 6 weeks that are the 'magic' it's the 2 week blocks of ramped up stimulation via 'loadxreps', or work so to speak, so as long as you repeated that, it would be the same to the muscles as moving up in RM's each time.
    Plus the way this summer I dropped my loads about 40%, increased 'fatigue' grew the best I have in years, did no RM increases, just added a little weight when I could as I went and it 'worked'. The lighter loads with more 'fatigue' trumped the heavier loads previously without the high fatigue.

    Man hope that feels better, I'm battling quite a few nagging injuries too, so I feel for ya on that! Sounds like a good plan your on, hope that heals up for ya! Me, I'm a 'bad warmer upper', I just do a set first for a few reps to warm up and only on the scary exercises.

    30.... man you lucky dog you lol. I remember 30... BARELY! I'm 52, ugh... where did the time go!
    Autoregulation does seem very cool. It's really the only way to manage those ups and downs in energy and recovery that vary all the time.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
  18. NWlifter

    NWlifter Member

    Hi O&G, What did you mean hit different fibers? If all are recruited and highly/near maximally activated, all would be 'hit' ?
     
  19. Old and Grey

    Old and Grey Super Moderator Staff Member

    52? Barely out of diapers. ;) Very true but much more difficult to achieve with high reps.
     
  20. NWlifter

    NWlifter Member

    Ha, ok, I will try to think of it that way instead of mourning my youth...

    So you agree true, but... fatigue(?) makes it hard to actually push the sets that far? Is that what your meaning?
     

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