Any way around suboptimal lifting period?

S

sh4mike

New Member
I'm still toying around with HST, trying different routines, set ranges, rep ranges, and calculating 5/8/10/15 rep maxes across a number of exercises.

One part that I'm still not comfortable with are the suboptimal workouts prior to the MAX workout every two weeks. For example, all 15s workouts prior to the final use a lower weight than my 15s max, but the protocol is that I should stop at 15. This feels...lackluster, and I don't enjoy doing these suboptimal workouts at all. It's just not fun.

The question: Is there a modification to exclude suboptimal workouts while maintaining HST principles? I've gone through various scenarios in my head but I have no idea if these violate the principles. Generally:

M=15s (max), W=10s (max), F=5s (max)

or

Week 1 = 15s (all max), Week 2 = 10s all max, Week 3 = 5s (all max)

or

Week 1= 15s (all max), Week 2 = 12s (all max), Week 3 = 10s (all max), Week4 = 8s (all max), Week 5 = 5s (all max), Week 6 = 3s (all max), SD

I'm actually a big fan of that first modification (keeps each week dynamic and interesting), but that's not HST.

Direction appreciated.
 
Scenario #3.

Just about right. Progression is done over the whole cycle. Chronic growth is more probable here than in other two scenarios.

Bear in mind that muscle responds to a change in load, not merely the load itself. It is for that reason that the load is progressed even during light load period. You could do more reps/sets during this period if you can. As Bryan said, if there's anything that allows the lifter to do more volume, he should. Seems to me that lighter weights is just the thing to allow for more volume.


If it will help you figure it out, here are the HST principles:

1. Mechanical load. Below that, no growth.
2. Load progression. Increments must be large enough but also numerous enough.
3. Frequency. Load muscle often to create a chronic growth environment.
4. SD. To allow for muscle to become sensitive again to previous loads.
 
Martin -- Very good reasoning.

Absolutely correct that I could do additional sets during the non-max workouts, but I still like the idea of lifting until you generate intra-set fatigue. Perhaps this is DC-style bias from my past experience.

I'm also trying to limit my volume (e.g. keep it at 1-set per exercise per workout) because I'm doing major compound lifts every workout -- a day doesn't go by without a squat variation, DL variation, or clean variation. Multiple sets would keep me from recovering in time.

***

Let me block this section off because it's another key question I've been struggling with regarding HST principles. I don't understand why we keep rep ranges identical for two weeks at a time. Based on how weights are loaded, why isn't the key message "keep adding more weight to the bar over 6 weeks?"

For example, I'll start a 6-week cycle with a weight equivalent to my 15 rep max. Then I'd add more weight to the bar every workout in an even progression scheme aimed at hitting my 3-rep max at the end of 6-weeks. This makes more sense to me, as I'd theoretically have an even drop in reps over time from 15, to 14, to 13, all the way to 3.

And if I get to my weight assigment at week 6 and bust out 4+ reps, I'd do another week (or weeks) adding weight until I inevitably hit 3 reps. Then I'd SD and recalculate my 15 rep max, 3 rep max, and even progression schedule for the next cycle.

Why isn't HST structured like this?

***

HST principle #2 is where I'm a bit worried. Using scenario #3 I would have 5 progressions, versus 15+ in a standard HST cycle.

And I'm embarrased to say, but I've googled and checked official HST docs but "mechanical load" is not clearly defined. I assume this means "load extra weight" to facilitate fatigue within certain rep ranges.

Seriously, this definition is crap and should be revised:

"1) Mechanical Load
Mechanical Load is necessary to induce muscle hypertrophy. This mechanism involves but isn't limited to, MAPk/ERK, satellite cells, growth factors, calcium, and number of other fairly understood factors. It is incorrect to say "we don't know how muscle grows in response to training". The whole point of the HST book is not to discuss HST, but to present the body of research explaining how hypertrophy occurs. Then HST becomes a relatively obvious conclusion if your goal is hypertrophy"
 
Mechanical Load means you are lifting weights. It means the load is what is important, not outdated concepts like 'the pump' or even fatigue. Fatigue and so on are not the growth stimulus here, the weight you are loading your muscles with is the growth stimulus.

Maybe this old topic will help a bit:
Summary of HST principles
 
Here's the definition from that link:

1) Mechanical Load:
Tension upon muscle cells is necessary to induce hypertrophy. When cells experience tension, the delicate sarcomeres are disrupted. Given adequate nutrients, the muscle is then repaired to a greater size than it originally possessed.
Side note: It is commonly misunderstood that muscle failure is the stimulus for muscle growth. Intuitively, it makes sense. How can someone not sustain growth if they are working to the very limits of their capacity? Unfortunately, this is not true! The tension on the muscle is what actually causes growth.(1)

***

I wish he would have wrote it as simply as you did, Totentanz. Appreciated.
 
When we do multiple repetitions quickly, we go into an oxygen deficit and start producing lactic acid. At some point, the muscle refuses to obey the CNS. The CNS then increases its drive to push the muscle to respond. This continues until neither the muscle nor the CNS can obey our will. Then we must rest for a time until we are able to lift the weight again. We must rest even longer if we also want to lift the weight multiple times as the first time. As we continue to lift the weight in this fashion, we train not only the muscle in terms of load but also in terms of energy consumption, oxygen consumption as well as CNS load and recovery.

What if we took all that out of the equation, kept only the growth stimulus? If we were able to do that, we'd be able to increase the stimulus immediately but also increase the volume and frequency we apply it.

In comes Max-Stim with its simple fatigue management method. Basically, it's a rest period between each rep to allow for more reps and/or more weight and/or more frequency. Again, as Bryan said, if there's anything that allows the lifter to increase volume, he should. If we must train the energy systems for increased aerobic or anaerobic capacity, we can do this outside of weight training without one affecting the other.

Aerobic capacity should transfer to weight training immediately. It's a function of cardio-pulmonary capacity and red blood cell count. Anaerobic capacity, on the other hand, I'm not sure that it transfers so easily but I think it does at least for the muscles that were used to train this system.
 
As an alternative, when I did linear progression, the weights kept bouncing off of my max here and there, to where I had to often repeat a weight the next workout to properly get the set in.
I assure you, this did not feel lackluster in any way! And it still follows the HST protocols.
The only downside was it burned me out quicker internally - called for a long SD and a change.
 
Martin -- Was your last post directing me to take a look at Max-Stim as an entire workout program, or are you simply taking the Max-Stim "rest between reps" theory and suggesting I apply it to HST routines?

I've never tried Max-Stim. Pretty radical approach to intra-set performance.

Quad -- I'm not having this issue. Perhaps because I'm doing 15/10/5s, and with such a large gap between rep ranges the weights rarely overlap.

I find myself adding weight during the suboptimal periods to see if I'm getting stronger, but in the end I'm just perform my max through the entire two weeks. That didn't feel like proper HST theory -- thus this topic.
 
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(sh4mike @ Oct. 20 2007,17:54)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">One part that I'm still not comfortable with are the suboptimal workouts prior to the MAX workout every two weeks.</div>
To eliminate the issue of suboptimal workouts, simply push as many reps as your body will allow, irregardless of what rep range you are in.  So, for example, if you are early in your 10's, go as far as you can instead of stopping at 10 reps.   I guess I'm echoing what others have already mentioned -- do more volume if your body allows it.  I've expereinced greater gains this way.

I also set a max volume limit per exercise depending on the number of excerses in the cycle.  In some ways, I guess this is similar to max stim, but instead of minimal rest after every set, I take somewhat longer rests when fatigue sets in.
 
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the advice given here.

When I hear, &quot;feel free to do more volume,&quot; I think &quot;do additional sets&quot; rather than &quot;do additional reps.&quot; According to what I've read about HST, the rep range is fixed over 2-week periods and additional volume is accomplished via additional sets.
 
You wrote &quot;but I still like the idea of lifting until you generate intra-set fatigue.&quot; Fatigue has no bearing on growth. Only one thing is important for growth: Load.

Let's look at the statement below, see if we can make sense of it.

&quot;If there's anything that allows the lifter to do more volume, he should.&quot;

We can formulate it differently.

&quot;If there's anything that reduces the volume a lifter can do, he should not.&quot;

Fatigue is a limiting factor. If we could eliminate fatigue altogether, we'd be able to lift the weight all day long and grow all day long. Literally. So when you must achieve some fatigue before you are satisfied, you effectively limit your ability to lift the weight. What about your strength endurance? You can train the aerobic and anaerobic systems as well as load the CNS outside of weight training without it affecting weight training. It will also transfer to weight training.
 
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(sh4mike @ Oct. 21 2007,15:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">When I hear, &quot;feel free to do more volume,&quot; I think &quot;do additional sets&quot; rather than &quot;do additional reps.&quot; According to what I've read about HST, the rep range is fixed over 2-week periods and additional volume is accomplished via additional sets.</div>
Let me ask then, what difference does this make?

If you are adding more sets you are adding more reps. The bottom line is one should be doing the most volume their individual conditioning level can allow, no matter how you divide it up. Sets, Reps, 2 a days, MS or what have you.

As far as HST being fixed in the number of sets, that's not true either. How it's set up is merely a means to an end and not the cause, or lack thereof, of a hypertrophic response.
 
Dan -- I'm not arguing in favor of either direction. I'm here questioning whether some of these fixed rules make sense. You say there's no difference, and I agree.

(On a side note, I did not say HST dictated a fixed # of sets; I said there was a fixed # of reps over a 2-week period (from what I have read). The number of sets is stated as variable with a recommendation to have more sets as reps decline.)

Regardless, I'm taking up too much of everyone's valuable time on this, because I've been given the answer from reply #1.

I was questioning the rules regarding fixed rep ranges over 2-week intervals given different loads, which didn't make much sense to me. The general concensus is that HST is not fixed in this regard and I can do whatever I want as long as I follow the core principles.

Sounds good. I'm going to research max-stim for a bit because the basic framework sounds like a great mix of DC and HST. Just waiting for someone to approve my forum registration (*nudge Dan nudge*).

Thank you all for your time.

Edit: Martin -- I really like your logical approach to all of this. Thank you for introducing me to max-stim concepts; I'll do some additional research.
 
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(sh4mike @ Oct. 21 2007,20:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thank you for introducing me to max-stim concepts; I'll do some additional research.</div>
Look here for more on Max Stimulation.
 
<div>
(sh4mike @ Oct. 21 2007,20:05)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I was questioning the rules regarding fixed rep ranges over 2-week intervals given different loads, which didn't make much sense to me. The general concensus is that HST is not fixed in this regard and I can do whatever I want as long as I follow the core principles.</div>
Exactly.

The basic HST routine is just one interpretation of the principles. You can set up your routine however you want as long as you follow the few rules to HST:

1. Load is the growth stimulus.

2. Chronic application of the load.

3. Progress the Load over time.

4. When progress stalls, take some time off.

As long as you have those concepts in your routine, you can still call it HST. Notice that pretty much any sane routine out there uses these principles in some form or another.
 
TunnelRat -- Thank you for the link. That's the only information that I have found. Surprised not to find any significant links to &quot;max stim/max stimulation&quot; information on any of the other forums.

Must be a new (or underappreciated) approach to hypertrophy. Regardless of the effectiveness, the workout approach is exactly what I am looking for.

Have some questions on potential for shortening phase length to avoid repetition and/or zigzag, but I figured this info will all become available once I get forum access.
 
Mike

Although I understand your reasoning, if I were you I'd give it a try just to see its effectiveness.

To me pushing the envelope only makes sense from the 5's onwards.

Max stim is not under appreciated, but HST is not an advertising site, however you will find that many of us (me included) use max stim techniques on our own programs, and once one of us mentions it, you'll soon find a link being offered.

HST is actually very &quot;flexible and adaptable&quot;, all we try to keep at all times is the principles but the programs are very varied, one thing that I and others found and I am sure you too (as you've mentioned it) is that the simpler the program the better the results, simply becuase compounds allow much more load bearing and thus provide the grounds for better growth based on &quot;the heavier the load the better the hypertrophy caused&quot; provided of course that within that we maintain almost perfect form, and keep nutrition up there where it belongs.
wink.gif
 
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(sh4mike @ Oct. 21 2007,21:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Surprised not to find any significant links to &quot;max stim/max stimulation&quot; information on any of the other forums.

Must be a new (or underappreciated) approach to hypertrophy. Regardless of the effectiveness, the workout approach is exactly what I am looking for.

Have some questions on potential for shortening phase length to avoid repetition and/or zigzag, but I figured this info will all become available once I get forum access.</div>
Relatively new, yes.

Just google max-stim

Access approved
 
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