Anybody would know why this happening to my chest?

Dood, I am beginning to think that there is a miscommunication. What Biz is refering to isn't necessarily for the tension eliciting effects (I think, Biz if I am putting words in your mouth then please tell me to shut up) but more for the increased volume that giant sets provide. A giant set, as Biz describes, provides more volume directly to the pecs and adverts the volume impacting the shoulders and arms as much. So maybe the best thing would be to not think of them as preexhaust, that brings a whole new debate of fatique into the mix, when I don't think this is what Biz' aim is.
 
I second the miscommunication theory...but I thought the miscommunication occured when BIZ suggested pre-exhausting the right pec...I think he still had things backwards and meant to pre-exhaust the left pec, which would have a similar effect as pre-exhausting the right shoulder and arm as Dood was suggesting. Just a thought.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (BIZ @ June 17 2005,4:48)]It may help to do one arm cable crossovers with just the right arm before any pressing movements. This will prefatigue the right pec and cause it to fail before your right shoulder and arm which have become the dominant muscle groups in your pressing movements.
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This is the original statement I'm arguing against. He specifically says pre-fatigue to cause failure, not provide extra volume.
Again, to me, this points to fatigue=hypertrophy, not load=hypertrophy.
 
Ahhh, if I hadn't shaved my head I would pull my hair out. I must be too old-school because we always did pre-exhaustion techniques on a muscle that wasn't responding to a compound exercise. Adam says his left pec is bigger than his right, but his right arm and shoulder are bigger than his left. So, his left pec and right arm/shoulder are the prime movers presumably. If he pre-exhausts the left pec, it gets tired before the right side gets sufficiently stimulated. if we pre-exhaust his right arm/shoulder, they give out before his pecs on either side, set terminated due to weak links. It is similar to doing curls before rows, your biceps would tire before your back, so counter-productive to wanting a bigger back. If I am wrong that pre-exhausting his right pec with an exercise such as a cable crossover will cause his Type II's (which as we should know have the greatest propensity for growth) to be recruited quicker and more fully, then throw out all your ideals about occlusive training, x-rep training, etc...because they are based on similar concepts as pre-exhausting a muscle.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (BIZ @ June 22 2005,7:15)]Ahhh, if I hadn't shaved my head

If I am wrong that pre-exhausting his right pec with an exercise such as a cable crossover will cause his Type II's (which as we should know have the greatest propensity for growth) to be recruited quicker and more fully.
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You shaved your head? Going for the Telly look, huh?

Wouldn't this depend on a couple of factors?

How soon the load set is done after the pre-exhaust.

What the load is.

I think I would go with your retracted shoulder solution first, I think you solved his problem just with that.
 
I made a few assumptions about the load and rest between sets based on what I know about type II's and occlusive training. If the shoulder retraction works, awesome, if not, then what? Gotta find a way to inhibit the dominant muscles.
 
The reason I asked is because unless the load is sufficient to activate the type two fibers in the compound, pre-exhaust still wouldn't help with those fibers, also if the time between the sets were spaced too far apart it would seem that the type ones would have time to recoup and still not give the results of activating type 2, just my thoughts. The other issue I see is unless he somehow gets his pecs to do the work the higher load would still impact the delt and tri, which is why I like your retracted shoulder idea, and the cable flys, pec dec, db flys for the additional pec volume.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (BIZ @ June 22 2005,8:15)]I must be too old-school because we always did pre-exhaustion techniques on a muscle that wasn't responding to a compound exercise.
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See this is my thought, that pre-exhaustion is an "old school" technique and doesn't fit with the current model of hypertrophy.
Pre-exhaustion may have worked to some degree, but because of the increase in volume and metabolic factors, not because it increased strain on a muscle.
In all the other examples you've cited, you accurately point out how pre-exhaustion would lead to early termination of a set due to the weak link being tired out. In this case, the weak link seems to be his pec. A tired muscle can't do as much work as a fresh one, therefore it can't handle increased strain.
I'm not sure what occlusion has to do with prefatige, my understanding of occlusion is it's either mechanically induced with something like a tourniqet, or it's induced by keeping the muscle in a contracted position after the set is finished. [edit] Unless you are talking about the effects of fatigue, lactic acid buildup, and metabolic stimulus that could be induced by pre-fatigue. In that case, (and I'm beginning to think this is what you mean), I think that is more the result of extra volume and reps that would be better served by a burn set, AFTER you've hit the target muscle with as much strain as possible. "Post-fatigue" if you will.
Sorry if I'm causing you to grab your hair folicles,
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I'm just trying to see if I have a proper understanding of the hypertrophy model, and if not why not.
 
Dood, you have it right. As far as hypertrophy is concerned fatigue is not a necessary ingredient, just an extra topping now and then. When I sit and really think about using pre-exhaustion techniques, we always did it for feel. As in the bench press, you can feel the pecs contracting more if you have done flyes first. You start to understand what the exercise is supposed to feel like when done properly. We also never used pre-exhaustion as a means of doing less weight on the compounds, so the load was the same you just felt it more in your target muscles. Is it a scientifically sound way to approach training? Not necessarily. More gym science than anything. Then again, occlusive training used to be called muscle spinning several decades ago, yet scientists think they are on to something new.

As far as how pre-exhaustion would be used relative to occlusive training. Occlusion of a muscle is caused either by a tourniquet or by natural means where blood is forced out of the muscle but none is allowed in, just as you said. Occlusive training can be done at the beginning of a workout, or the end depending on the goal. If you want to use it to fatigue the slow twitch fibers so that your type II's are recruited more fully in a compound exercise, then do it before a compound exercise. For instance, I do leg extensions before I do squats, and I do high reps and really push thru the burn, and I pulse at the top the last few reps. So now, my type I's are tired, so I go immediately over to the squat rack and do 5-10 reps of squats. My type II's are recruited quickly and more fully due to the fatigue in the type I's and the short rest interval (less than 60 sec). I hope that makes any sense. If I just wanted to increase metabolic stress in the muscle, I would do occlusive training at the end of my workout.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (BIZ @ June 17 2005,4:57)]Also, when pressing, be sure you are pinching your shoulder blades together on both sides. For some reason I can retract my left shoulder without thinking about it when pressing, but my right one wants to protract unless I really focus on keeping it back. I fought south paw in martial arts for the longest time, even though I am right handed, so I can relate to your having one side overly-developed.
By the way, a good test to see if you are retracting the right shoulder blade the same or as much as needed:
Do dumbbell flyes and pick a weight that causes a pretty good pull in the pecs in the lower position. If you feel the stretch quite a bit on your left pec, but not your right, there is a pretty good chance your right shoulder blade is protracted and keeping most of the stretch in your anterior delt. Really focus on pulling your right shoulder blade back and try it again. Should feel an increase in the stretch. Let me know what you find out.
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Hey guys. I was out of town for the whole week, so I couldn't check the thread. I see lots of people jumped in to help. Thanks a lot.


I think you might have hit the nail in the Haad here BIZ. I really think that might be what's happening as the front part of my right shoulder sticks out while on the left shoulder it doesn't. I asked somebody to watch me while pressing and it seems when lifting, I kind of lift my right shoulder towards my head (like shrugging). Is that what you were talking about? If so, and I understood it right, a trick to correct it is to make sure my shoulder blade (upper back) is always touching the bench while I lift? Any other tricks? I think this may be it. Thanks BIZ.
Thanks everybody for all the help.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (BIZ @ June 22 2005,8:15)]I must be too old-school because we always did pre-exhaustion techniques on a muscle that wasn't responding to a compound exercise.
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Interesting. My left triceps is much smaller than my right. So, I could pre-exhaust my right triceps before doing my triceps cable pulldowns and close grip bench press to correct the unbalance?
Did I understand it right?Thanks.
 
A better solution for this problem may be to only do unilateral exercises for the triceps so each one does their own job. For instance, do skull-crushers with dumbbells instead of a bar, or one arm pressdowns with the cable. Close-grip bench wil be difficult to do one arm at a time, unless you are a circus act, so either wait to change things up till next cycle, or trade in the close grip bench for a uni-lateral capable exercise. Or...keep the close grip and switch to unilateral pressdowns and do one or two more sets on the left arm than the right.
 
Thanks BIZ. I'll try that. Did you have the chance to take a look at my reply above about the shoulder blades and bench press? Thanks.
 
Biz,
Thank you for your explanation, I guess I never really looked at pre-fatigue/pre-occlusion in terms of getting the type II's to kick in sooner. Interesting. Always learning something :)
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (AdamCJX* @ June 26 2005,7:48)]I'm bumping it. I hope to get a last word from BIZ ;)
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Sorry I am slow to reply. Sounds like you have figured it out. Yes, keep the shoulders pinched together (at least try to) and that should help. Another trick that I have used is to roll up a towel into a tube and lay it where it will be between your shoulder blades. This will make it a little easier to keep your blades retracted.
 
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