Best Cycle For Mass

T

TylerDurden

New Member
Im in college now, but dont worry, i have a BJ's card and a boatload of bulking foods. In about 1 month or two im gonna start bulking up, and doing some serious hst, but what is the best split/routine for gaining mass? really high frequency? 1 day on 1 day off? Ive never really figured it out so i was hoping for some help.
 
5-6 days per week, full body. You could do 4 days if you wanted, wouldn't want to go above 6 I don't think - changes the caloric intake a bit much.

2 weeks of 5s, 1-2 weeks of 5RM, 2 weeks of clusters/negs.

For the 5s use your compounds - chest, back, legs, shoulders.

Use drop sets/metabolic sets.

Once you hit 5RM phase, throw in the isolations - bis, tris, rear delts, leg extn&curls.

For clusters and negs phase you can also throw in loaded stretches, or can add these in at 5RM phase.

Be mindful of your fatigue, don't let the DOMS/soreness get too intense.

Eat eat eat and make it clean. Do the maths for this at the start, give yourself an idea of a good bulking intake for your body. I like to use a carb-up day or two each week, an extra 100gms or so of good carbs for glycogen if you're using greater than 3x frequency.


This is a heavy-hst bulking cycle, worked for me earlier this year and I'm using it again in 2 weeks after my SD.
 
For bulking, I would only do 3-4 days a week, fullbody each day. But if you gain weight easily, then you may want to increase the frequency. For me, I have a very high metabolism... and when I was doing 5-6 days a week, fullbody each day, I could not eat enough to gain weight, no matter what I did. I ate over 4000 cals every day and still gained less than a pound a week. It's just not worth it for such small gains.
3-4 days a week equats to 1 day on, 1 day off. That's what I prefer when bulking, but everyone has different preferences...


For a bulk, I would probably want to use a routine that is primarily compounds as Jester suggested. I would probably skip the 15s too. Start out in the 10s or 5s, whichever you prefer. If you just want to add shear mass, don't do very much isolation work, concentrate on the big ones - squat, deadlift, dips/bench, some sort of press for the shoulders and some bentover rows. Add in metabolic work like Jester suggested and you should grow like a weed.

I would extend the negatives/post-5s as long as possible.
 
Yeah, no split routine.  Go full body 4-6 times per week.  I like 6 days a week, alternating two different full body workouts. For example, squats, bench, lat pulldown, etc on days 1,3,5. And then deadlift, incline DBs, rows, etc on days 2,4,6. I keep volume low to accomodate the frequency: 2 sets for compound movements and 1 set for isolation movements, not taken to failure, 10 or so exercises per workout.

Another option is to do both a morning and evening workout 3 days per week.  Some have suggested that this might have some minor benefits compared to spreading it out over 6 days.  Watch your weight and make sure you're gaining steadily.  If you're not, either eat more or decrease the frequency.

I recommend the 15s, since they prepare the tendons for increased loads.  When bulking I know I'm going to be lifting heavier poundages than ever before and the last thing I want is an injury to throw a wrench in my gaining momentum.  It is true though that you won't gain much during the 15s, so you'll have to make the call on whether keeping them in the cycle is worth it.

After the 15's, do 2 weeks of 10s, 2 weeks of 5s, and then extend the cycle as long as you can, adding weight to the bar by extending into negatives.  All in all, a cycle of 8-12 weeks is possible before deconditioning is needed.

If you're looking for a sample routine, I'm sure we can share ours, or you can check out the HST FAQ.
 
Less is more.

Overtraining is probably the biggest mistake guys make when attempting to gain mass. Followed by under-eating. The overtraining mistake is most often made by guys in their teens and 20ies. It is not that guys in their 30 on are smarter - it is just that they overtrained and learned their lesson the hard way.

There are a number of factors that lead to gaining mass. The problem is if one overdoes any one factor then the end results suffer.

HST was designed to balance different factors involved in training and gaining mass.

NO ONE FACTOR IS MAXIMIZED SO THAT THE OVERALL RESULT IS OPTIMAL

I repeat: No one factor is maximized so the overall result is optimized.

Weight training and muscle building would be simple if all you had to do was train as hard and heavy as possible, as often and as long as possible. 5 reps all the time, heavy all the time – it don’t work that way gentlemen.

We all (myself included) want to tweak HST. And you can tweak HST, Vicious’s thread on this is great. But if you start changing it too much you will break it. Throw it out of ballance.

You gotta do and SD.

15's are optional --but actually important.. Metabolic stress, good for the joints ect

10's you grow in your tens.

As vicious says “think of SD, 15's & 10s as a preparation for your 5's and post-5s (negatives)

It is difficult to have a productive post 5's without the preparation

I don’t have a problem with cutting 15s to one week, and one should do post -5s for as long as possible. There are lot of ways to make the post 5's hairy (see Vicious thread)

You will get more benefits from doing some 15's and 10's than throwing them out the window.

Less is more.

Bob :D
 
would you have enough time to recover your whole body in just 24 hours?

how would you adjust the volume or split up your bodyparts for 4-6 days a week?

like this?:
1=upperbody
2=lower body

M 1
T 2
W off
TH 1
F 2
Sa 1
Su 2

OR

M off
T whole body
W off
TH whole body
F off
Sa whole body
Su whole body

OR

use a chest/shoulder/triceps
back/ legs split?

Do one set per bodypart instead of the normal two(as in the 3-day a week plan)?
[wednesdays suck for me and i cant lift twice a day on weekdays(could on Sa and Su though)
 
Your body doesn't need 24 hours to recover.

I don't recommend high frequency when bulking because of the increased caloric demands. Like Bob suggested, if you want to work out more often, an AM/PM split, 3 days a week could be the way to go. That worked well for me in the past.
 
Hey :)

Less is more, in the context of avoiding overtraining, is right on the money.

But "less is more" isn't universal. In terms of how much volume, less is not more. You should do as much as you can, as long as you avoid overtraining.

Can you workout 6x a week? Yes. Do you need 24H to recover? Nope. Can you train again in around 24H? Yep, pretty much.

Whether 6x a week will work on you depends on your routine. If you insist on doing 2 to 3 exercises per bodypart and still workout 6x a week, that might not work. If you keep it to the core movements, around 5-7 exercises only, and do enough volume (meaning as much as you can without going crazy so you don't overtrain, probably only one good set), then that pretty much can work.

Regards,
-JV
 
Howdy
I would be willing to bet that more muscle has been built doing a full body 3 days a week routine than ever trying to do it 5 to 6 days a week. If you want to live in the gym then go for it.
If you would stick to the true and proven HST routine you will have no problems.
There are people on this forum who have never swayed for the original HST plan and have made tremendous gains in both size and strength.
Furthermore, not everybody recovers in a 24-hour period!
I for one sure don’t.
You have to listen to what your body is trying to tell you.
If 24 hrs is sufficient then so be it , but if you are walking around all day with no energy and feeling like a slug, then try 36 hrs and see if that helps. Every one of us is somewhat different when it comes to recovery.
Not alot ! Just somewhat .
Yours truly
Sonny :)
 
Sonny, how the heck ya been there old man?

Anyway, there is a balance and everyones tolerance for exercise is a bit different.

All I can add is monitor your strength, if you notice it dropping then cut back from really high frequency and go with reduced frequency or reduce the overall volume (exercises or sets reduction).
 
copy that Totentanz and jvroig. if i was going to increase frequency i was going to decrease volume per workout(like 1 set per bodypart). one thing though is that my schedule does not allow 2x a day workouts.
and dont worry about me not getting enough calories...i LOVE to eat, i really have to watch myself during SD to make sure i dont get out of hand :)

Conciliator: how do you determine when to add weight? the scenerios i came up with were:
1)add weight to the 'A' set of exercises once a week and add weight to the 'B' set the following workout.
2)add weight to the 'A' & 'B' workout every third time you perform it

i read in a past thread that when you perform the same exercsies with the same weight the muscle becomes conditioned to that weight so if you use the same weight ~3x in a row almost no hypertophy will be accomplished.
also taken into account is the notion that larger load increments lean towards hypertrophy and not so much strenght(but still achiveing both) as small frequent load increses may not even be 'noticed' by the body. But would training the same muscles with two different exercises and thus two different weight condition the muscle against hypertrophy?

EX:
M 'A' bench press 200lbs
T 'B' dips BW+30
W
Th 'A' bench press 200lbs
F 'B' dips BW+30
Sa 'A' bench press 220lbs
Su 'B' dips BW+40

Here you would have trained your bench press twice at the same weight but you have trained the muscle itself 4 times with the same weights, so has the muscle become resistant to training at light weight even though you are performing different exercises?


Could it be argued that training with less volume each workout (1 set per body part) does not increase protein synthesis AS MUCH as training with greater volume (2 sets per bodypart)?
Thus training 3x a week at 2 sets would increase protein synthesis more drastically, just not as often, as training 6x a week at 1 set.
If this is so, which would be more beneficial for growth during bulking?

Also, as a possible argument towards using a 3x day a week program, would doing HIIT cardio on two or three off days still give you the enhanced protein synthesis/other desired chemical responses as a weight training workout?

Its funny how after writing question you find your own answers :)
hahahaha
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (shwaym @ Sep. 12 2005,2:18)]1. i read in a past thread that when you perform the same exercsies with the same weight the muscle becomes conditioned to that weight so if you use the same weight ~3x in a row almost no hypertophy will be accomplished.

2.also taken into account is the notion that larger load increments lean towards hypertrophy and not so much strenght(but still achiveing both) as small frequent load increses may not even be 'noticed' by the body.  But would training the same muscles with two different exercises and thus two different weight condition the muscle against hypertrophy?
EX:
M 'A' bench press 200lbs
T 'B' dips BW+30
W
Th 'A' bench press 200lbs
F 'B' dips BW+30
Sa 'A' bench press 220lbs
Su 'B' dips BW+40
Here you would have trained your bench press twice at the same weight but you have trained the muscle itself 4 times with the same weights, so has the muscle become resistant to training at light weight even though you are performing different exercises?

3.Could it be argued that training with less volume each workout (1 set per body part) does not increase protein synthesis AS MUCH as training with greater volume (2 sets per bodypart)?
Thus training 3x a week at 2 sets would increase protein synthesis more drastically, just not as often, as training 6x a week at 1 set.
If this is so, which would be more beneficial for growth during bulking?

4.Also, as a possible argument towards using a 3x day a week program, would doing HIIT cardio on two or three off days still give you the enhanced protein synthesis/other desired chemical responses as a weight training workout?
Click to expand...
1. The time it takes for growth to completely stop depends on several other issues besides just frequency and or how times that load has been used. Although, yes, you will adapt to the load, the adaptaion would not be 100% even with using the same load 3X in a row. In some cases the growth would not stall for weeks. But speaking in terms of optimal, an increase each workout would be more beneficial, but optimal would also entail perfecting the Time the tension is applied, perfecting nutriton, enhancing recruitment, enhancing hormonal response and so on. We as humans do NOT have optimal conditions to use so it's really a mute point.

2.In some cases yes, some no. It again depends on several factors when looking at using varying exercise. For simplicity sake though, it's better to use a set of exercises you are familiar with so as not to shift the neural learning curve higher.

3. PS elevations occur either way, the risk that is run with some of the overtraining effects may outweigh, may not. As your conditioning improves, the elevations in protein sysnthesis diminish but doesn't mean they stop altogether. Also it's about accumulated POSITIVE protein balance, eventhough PS may be elevated at any given time, if degradation is higher there is still no net balance and gains will be minimal. Excessive work can contribute to increased breakdown.

4. A slew of things change protein balance including simply eating more, so adding HIIT would have an impact as well.
 
so what is the best for mass? 3x a week or an am/pm split?

i am doing a mass cycle in a couple of weeks and am curious what others think
 
sorry dkm and sonny, i took so long to write my previous post that i missed yours.

overtraining is of course something i have taken into consideration and after more thought/reading i just decided to start with the 3x a week, one a day plan but with 15,12,10,8,6,5,post increments and alternating between 'A' & 'B' fullbody workouts. i think ill start with just one 15min HIIT session a week and then if i want to ill add another during the 10's and another during the 5s.
if i gain too much fat and not muscle then i will just increase repetition volume slightly.

"PS elevations occur either way, the risk that is run with some of the overtraining effects may outweigh, may not. As your conditioning improves, the elevations in protein sysnthesis diminish but doesn't mean they stop altogether. Also it's about accumulated POSITIVE protein balance, eventhough PS may be elevated at any given time, if degradation is higher there is still no net balance and gains will be minimal. Excessive work can contribute to increased breakdown."

i realize that PS elevates due to any exercsie but it must be to different degreees. walking will raise PS, but it will not produce the same PS elevation as an hour of lifting weights. so i was wondering how much greater the difference was between a 8 set lifting session and one with 16 sets(everything else being equal) would it be doubled? 50% more? 25% more? if it would only be slightly more than the benefit of lifting low volume, 6x a week is obvious due to the additional PS.
i also have in mind not going overboard with the training as it will lead to protein degredation and i understand that positive balance must be achieved for optimal growth.

"But speaking in terms of optimal, an increase each workout would be more beneficial, but optimal would also entail perfecting the Time the tension is applied, perfecting nutriton, enhancing recruitment, enhancing hormonal response and so on. We as humans do NOT have optimal conditions to use so it's really a mute point."

i strongly disagree with this.
optimization is the whole reason we are all spending our time on the interent, going through message boards.
and not just lifting "hard & heavy" and then eating a 'normal' diet.
we want optimazation, that is why we are here.
obviously it cannot be achieved but i believe that we should always be striving towards it and use any means/ideas at our disposal to get there.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] (shwaym @ Sep. 13 2005,9:14)]i realize that PS elevates due to any exercsie but it must be to different degreees.  walking will raise PS, but it will not produce the same PS elevation as an hour of lifting weights.

so i was wondering how much greater the difference was between a 8 set lifting session and one with 16 sets(everything else being equal) would it be doubled? 50% more? 25% more? if it would only be slightly more than the benefit of lifting low volume, 6x a week is obvious due to the additional PS.  

i also have in mind not going overboard with the training as it will lead to protein degredation and i understand that positive balance must be achieved for optimal growth.

i strongly disagree with this.
optimization is the whole reason we are all spending our time on the interent, going through message boards.
and not just lifting "hard & heavy" and then eating a 'normal' diet.

we want optimazation, that is why we are here.
obviously it cannot be achieved but i believe that we should always be striving towards it and use any means/ideas at our disposal to get there.
Click to expand...
Suprisingly no, or more accurately the variance is marginal.

Let's look for example at FSR during two intensities. When working within the same TTI a recent study showed that PS elevations where the same with both a 60% and 90% 1RM. Another study looking at the same thing but longer ago and with rats showed that a correlation existed between FSR and the number of contractions, more didn't improve wet Muscle weight but both had about the same change in FSR. The reason as I was elluding too, was that with more work comes more energy needs, some of this energy will be produced via amino acid oxygenation. So even increasing FSR rate isn't the end all telltale sign. Also in order to do more work some variable must change, you simply CAN"T go from doing 8 sets to 16 sets and keep all variables the same.

In line with this comes the fact that PS elevations change on your conditioning state, so a newb may have a better increase in muscle weight than a trained person. This in turn would change the frequency dynamic for a trained person vs an untrained.

Another issue with frequency and items that impact it (besides volume) is strength. Longer duration, more frequent workouts can play havoc with your strength not allowing proper loading for a proper amount of time.

So to coin a phrase from Bryan, you need to MANAGE your training accordingly. Be smart and adapt your training as your body begins to adapt.

To answer JWbond, if a total newb, you could see dramatic results using a 1X whole body/week, as your training state advances then frequency should be increased within a balance of volume, duration and fatigue that allows proper loading.
 
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Howdy
I would be willing to bet that more muscle has been built doing a full body 3 days a week routine than ever trying to do it 5 to 6 days a week. If you want to live in the gym then go for it.
If you would stick to the true and proven HST routine you will have no problems.
There are people on this forum who have never swayed for the original HST plan and have made tremendous gains in both size and strength.
Click to expand...

This is my conundrum...I love being the gym, I'm sure I'm not alone here...but only going in 3 times a week I feel lazy, restless a bit...it's probably mental more than physical.

The benefits I see from 3x times a week are:

Less food micromanagement

Bigger increments - because I'm going to alternate exercises

Easier time schedule, which might suit me better at this point for 2 months (finishing my thesis)

But I remember O&G and Vicious being huge proponents of higher frequency once the food intake is figured correctly...


And getting more from less does make sense...




Conundrum
butbut.gif
 
Hey :)

As long as you don't go crazy on the volume and don't include too much exercises, 24 hours is plenty! Even if you do negs.

The muscles are good to go, they hardly complain. It's the CNS that we really have to worry about, which is why have to manage the volume when dealing with high frequency.

If you manage it right, I believe you can actually squeeze a little bit more from training more frequently. For example, it might be pretty hard to get two good 8 rep sets for a heavy weight. But if you had one day to rest, you can do one good 8 rep set for that weight each day, and you'd end up doing the same number of reps and sets for the week. You can think of it as having one whole day to rest between each set, so you know you can actually do a little bit more. With higher frequency training, you can expose your muscles to tension more frequently.

So take care of your food intake, manage the volume, get enough rest (sleep and manage your stress levels), and you are good to go.

And using a weight 3x won't remove its hypertrophic effect. I don't get where that started. You adapt, yes, but to make a weight totally ineffective, that would take weeks, how many weeks depends on how heavy the load is and your current conditioning. You can use the same weight for 2 weeks, even more. A good estimate would be 4-6 weeks. That's way way more than just using a weight 3x. Whether that's "optimal" or not depends on what you plan to do.
 
Hmmmmm. I don't get it are you saying to do the exact same workout 6 days a week. I thought with a 6 day a week programe you fluctuated between an (a) upperbody and (b) lowerbody routine.

Stack
 
You can do the same routine 6 times a week, or you can alternate between two different fullbody routines, or you can do an upper/lower split, or... etc etc. You aren't locked in to one particular thing here. You can do pretty much whatever you want and still call it HST as long as it follows the HST principles.
 
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