cardio what do you think

I do a fair amount of cardio because I just like riding bikes, and since the weather has improved I'm on a bike about 6-7 hours a week, at various levels of intensity. I know cardio is catabolic, and doing this is probably not optimal to my goal of building muscle, but whatever - I love it, and a long ride on a sunny day beats sweating in a gym with no windows any day. My muscles can deal.
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ANYWAY, I also lurk around bikeforums.net, where I found this interesting post in the training/nutrition forum. I'm just gonna plagiarize the whole thing here, credit to DannoXYZ over at those forums for the original:

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">yeah, I think it was TerryMorse that posted that. It was about muscle-efficiency over the years of training. It's not so much how much power you generate for calories, that's close to a 18-20% range for all humans. It's how much power your muscles can create using any given amount of oxygen. So initially you might be able to produce 150watts at XYZ volume of oxygen delivered. With training and improved efficiency, you'll be able to produce 200watts with that same amount of aerobic capacity. However, the calories consumed WILL increase by 33%. I'll see if I can dig up that chart...

Ok found it:
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This shows that VO2-max stops improving after a while. And the LT HR doesn't improve over time. So LT@175bpm and a certain amount of O2-delivery will be fixed after a couple of years. In the beginning you'll only be able to produce 150-watts at 175bpm. However, after some training, with that exact same HR and O2-delivery, your muscles will be able to create 200-watts. That's an improvement in oxygen-utilization. But calorie-efficiency will still be the same and you'll end up consuming 33% more calories to generate that extra power.

However, the glycogen vs. fat ratio will improve with fitness as well. A new rider burning 600-calories/hr @ 17mph may be burning 90% glycogen/10% fat. With improved fitness and strength, that same rider riding @ 17mph will still be burning 600-calories, but they will be burning a 60% glycogen/40% fat ratio.</div>

Obviously geared towards endurance atheletes and not really weight-lifters, but I found it interesting nonetheless. FWIW.
 
i shall try to find that on lyles board morgorth
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DEOLMSTEAD cheers for that i have read something like that before,the more efficient you get at cardio the better you burn fat rather than carbs.
 
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(faz @ Jun. 15 2007,16:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">i shall try to find that on lyles board morgorth
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DEOLMSTEAD cheers for that i have read something like that before,the more efficient you get at cardio the better you burn fat rather than carbs.</div>
It`s dependant upon intensity and duration of effort as well. Anything that is intense enough(and inherently short, because you can`t really maintain say a max sprint forever, ben johnson couldn`t run at max effort all day long) and, umm quick/explosive(best description I can come up off the top of my head) you`ll be burning carbs. You can even infuse FFAs, you`ll still not burn them(it`s been tested) as the path for metabolizing FFAs is too long. Once you shift more from explosive max to sustained endurance so does substrate utilization shift from carbs to fat(it`s fairly logical for your body to do so).
 
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(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jun. 15 2007,15:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(faz @ Jun. 15 2007,16:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">i shall try to find that on lyles board morgorth
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DEOLMSTEAD cheers for that i have read something like that before,the more efficient you get at cardio the better you burn fat rather than carbs.</div>
It`s dependant upon intensity and duration of effort as well. Anything that is intense enough(and inherently short, because  you can`t really maintain say a max sprint forever, ben johnson couldn`t run at max effort all day long) and, umm quick/explosive(best description I can come up off the top of my head) you`ll be burning carbs. You can even infuse FFAs, you`ll still not burn them(it`s been tested) as the path for metabolizing FFAs is too long. Once you shift more from explosive max to sustained endurance so does substrate utilization shift from carbs to fat(it`s fairly logical for your body to do so).</div>
yea that makes it a bit clearer cheers.

also if say i was running 5miles everyday at 7min mile pace,and a freind of mine who had never run before decided to join me,where as i might be coasting at that pace he might be near his max effort and therfore using more carbs.
 
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(faz @ Jun. 15 2007,17:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Morgoth the Dark Enemy @ Jun. 15 2007,15:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(faz @ Jun. 15 2007,16:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">i shall try to find that on lyles board morgorth
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DEOLMSTEAD cheers for that i have read something like that before,the more efficient you get at cardio the better you burn fat rather than carbs.</div>
It`s dependant upon intensity and duration of effort as well. Anything that is intense enough(and inherently short, because you can`t really maintain say a max sprint forever, ben johnson couldn`t run at max effort all day long) and, umm quick/explosive(best description I can come up off the top of my head) you`ll be burning carbs. You can even infuse FFAs, you`ll still not burn them(it`s been tested) as the path for metabolizing FFAs is too long. Once you shift more from explosive max to sustained endurance so does substrate utilization shift from carbs to fat(it`s fairly logical for your body to do so).</div>
yea that makes it a bit clearer cheers.

also if say i was running 5miles everyday at 7min mile pace,and a freind of mine who had never run before decided to join me,where as i might be coasting at that pace he might be near his max effort and therfore using more carbs.</div>
Yes and no. I may not have made this clear, but there`s another factor to consider(besides the fact that your friend probably couldn`t emulate your running bout in its entirety). If say you were walking calmly and went suddenly to a sprint, you`re only going to be able to use carbs for that, FFAs simply aren`t used in this type of rapid, spontaneous effort. Dunno if it makes sense, my theoretical wanking skills WRT bbing stuff are beyond rusty.
 
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(MyNameHere @ Jun. 16 2007,11:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Here's a link to some energy pathways information. I think this is what you guys are referring to here. Forgive me if I'm mistaken. This may make it clearer--or just muddle it up beyond recognition.
http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/energy.htm</div>
No dude, that`s absolutely great, cheers. That should be bookmarked for any cardio battle type of discussion...
 
It had one point in particular that I liked pertaining to BB'ing:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Intensive Tempo - continuous runs at 80 to 90% of maximum heart rate. Lactate levels become high as these runs boarder on speed endurance and special endurance. Intensive tempo training lays the base for the development of anaerobic energy systems. </div>
And evidently helps with hypertrophy in a roundabout way.
 
For a powerlifter or bber, cardio is about burning calories, and nothing else.  The faster your heart beats the more calories you're burning.  

Don't underestimate your body's ability to adapt to exercise.  When you continue to do the same type of moderate cardio every day, your body adjust to it.  Therefore, your heart rate doesn't go up as high as it once did, and you don't burn as many calories.  Heart rate monitors should take care of that problem.

If you do HIIT, I think it's important to keep the intensity as high as possible.  Therefore, the only way I can see someone doing HIIT is if they are swimming, sprinting on a track, riding a bike on a track, or pedaling a recumbent stationary bike.  If you have to use the slightest conscious effort  to be cautious about potholes, cracks, falling off a stationary bike, staying on a treadmill, etc. etc. then you really aren't going as fast as you can go.  I think that's one of the problems that arises when guys attempt to do HIIT---they aren't really doing it at all.  

I also agree with Slaps.  HIIT really stresses your CNS, so moderate 30min cardio sessions or light hour long cardio sessions are probably better when you're on low cals.  When on heavy cals, it might make things more interesting to throw in some HIIT every now and then, but as long as you wear a heart rate monitor during regular cardio HIIT isn't a necessity.
 
You definitely don't need a monitor for HIIT! Steve is right about distractions: I was using my street skates for HIIT down in Florida, and often had to derail a &quot;set&quot; because of a car, crossing, pedestrian, etc. (doing about 25-30 mph in the spurts) - but it really didn't mess me up any since it's so brutal anyway.
 
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(quadancer @ Jun. 24 2007,12:30)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You definitely don't need a monitor for HIIT! Steve is right about distractions: I was using my street skates for HIIT down in Florida, and often had to derail a &quot;set&quot; because of a car, crossing, pedestrian, etc.  (doing about 25-30 mph in the spurts) - but it really didn't mess me up any since it's so brutal anyway.</div>
the quadman zooming down the road at 30mh on skates
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Everybody thinks I'm nutz anyway. A fair skinned redhead married to a black gal in my 50's!
We ironheads do it OUR way!
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Alan Aragon and Cosgrove for example may disagree, but they have to take an extremist stance because moderation sells just about zilch in this industry. </div>

I just browsed over Aragon's article again. He suggests using low and high intensity steady state and HIIT. In other words, variety. HIIT and high intensity cardio do seem to have a positive effect on your overall metabolism.

My thought is, wouldn't High intensity stuff stoke up the furnace, and then low intensity stuff provide the furnace plenty of fuel to burn? Oh, that's kind of like what Lyle suggests!
 
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