Could I please get some feedback on my workout routine? Is it good?

[bardocgr]

Hey, my name is John and im from Greece..

Im 21 years old , 85 kg and 187 cm, (been on the gym for almost 2 years now).

im on my 5th week of HST
I did 2 weeks 15s, 2 weeks 10s, and thats my first week 5s, next 2 weeks ill be doing negatives
(Thats what i figured from reading)


Anyway just to mention it, I never stay to the gym more than a hour.

1) Wide Chin ups
2) Bicep dumbell Curls (-sometimes doing that with a barbell)
3) Bench Press
4) Dips
5) Leg Curls
6) Squats
7) Leg Extensions
8) Calf raise
9) Shoulder Barbell press
10) Dumbel Press (chest)
11) Cable Seated Row (low)
12) Upper Abs
13) Lower Abs
14) Low back extensions
15) Tricep Overhead extension

thats pretty much my routine.
I go to the gym on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays 8-9 pm

Another thing Im consered about is my diet (im trying to be as strict as possible) - I recently read about the protein myths and that our bodies only need 70-120 gr of protein per day (no more no less) and that we don't actually need to eat every 3 hours (look up Brad Pilons - How much protein and Eat stop eat for this).
Will I be able to build muscle while also loosing fat?






How does this all sound, am I doing anything wrong ? Thank you.

 

[waray214]

hey john- great to hear your doing hst. your program looks decent but i think you have too many exercises. i would suggest possibly splitting some of your exercises to an A/B format to avoid overtraining. i'd also definitely suggest reading the "simply and win" thread to get some ideas on how to simplify your routine utilizing primarily the basic compound exercises i.e. squats, deadlifts, bench, dips, rows, pull-ups, military press, etc. i personally think you could drop some of the isolation leg work you're doing such as leg ext, leg curls, and calf raises and even lower back extensions and really just focus on squats and deads. those two right there work the whole body and will hammer your legs, specifically your quads and hams. i think if you simplified your routine the following it might help...p.s. i would suggest every time you workout to have one exercise involving pushing horizontally (some sort of bench or dips), pushing vertically (a version of shoulder press), pulling horizontally (some sort of rows), and pushing vertically (pull-ups, chin-ups, etc.) this will lead to a balanced looking physique

A Day

Squats (Legs)
Wide Chin Ups (Vertical Pull)
Cable Rows (horizontal pull)
Bench Press (horizontal push)- no real need for dumbbell bench as you already have bench press and dips
Shoulder barbell press (vertical push)
then any iso work you want to do i.e. biceps, triceps, traps so in your case tricep ext and bicep curls

B Day

Deadlifts (Legs)
Wide chin ups
Cable Rows
Chest Dips
Shoulder barbell press
iso work

I think this would do you well and will definitely hit your whole body effectively without overtraining. best of luck!

also how many sets are you doing per cycle?

 

[waray214]

as far as the protein goes and the number of hours between meals i'm really not sure what the conclusive evidence is on that. i'm sure someone here in the forum with your knowledge could better inform you than i could

 

[waray214]

70-120 g of protein definitely doesnt seem like enough though. it's usually suggested to take 1-1.5 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight a day. it also depends what your goals are...if you are cutting, bulking, maintaining , etc. also, building muscle while losing fat is tough to do because in order to gain muscle you need to eat a surplus of calories which will likely lead to a little fat gain. but that's why there's bulking and cutting. first you bulk to put on muscle, and with muscle may come some fat, then you can always cut back and get shredded . keep track of your calorie intake and your macronutrients, how much carbs, protein, and fat you eat per day and find out what macros work for you. personally for me, i like to go with 40% carbs, 40% pro, and 20% fat while bulking and it has lead to pretty lean gains. others like to go higher on carbs, others on protein, it just depends. it's always gonna take some experimenting and tweaking to find out what works best for you

 

[Canborn]

as for protein needs...you gotta think that a guy at 250 pounds is going to need more than someone weighing 170. And was the study conducted towards resistant training or the average.

 

[bardocgr]

Wow nice replies, thanks for commenting guys, i love the info.
Now:

about protein: there are researches (lots of them) conducted by medical groups payed by supplement companies such as musletech which proved that protein must be there in order to build anything (since your body cant make all the protein by itself) but any more than 120 gr will be wasted and wont have any effects on you what so ever- if you are an average guy with NO muscles 70 g of protein would be sufficient for you, while if you are bodybuilding 120 gr is more than enough ! .. Brad Pilon (nutritionist and bodybuilder - ex researcher for supplement company) describes exactly that and has lots of evidence about it on his ebook (how much protein).


Anyway except protein and stuff, when it comes to my exercise routine:

its hard to believe I will get any results with such litle effort.
i am doing 1 set of each exercise thats why i used lots of exercises (i though- well i cant overtrain if Im only doing 1 set !) slowly executing each one, and Im hardly staying to the gym for 40 mins. If i simplify it more it would be too easy wouldnt it? Maybe change the reps- instead of 1 do 2?
has anyone tried it? - any results ?

Thank you !

 

[bardocgr]

When it comes to protein:

1 random research :

The people in this study were all over 50 years of age and were eating a very low
protein diet. On average these subjects were eating under 0.3 grams of protein
per pound of body weight. To put that into perspective, a 180-pound man would
be eating about 50 grams of protein per day, for 12 weeks. According to the
current fitness industry dogma, this amount of protein is probably 3 times
lower than the amount of protein needed for building muscle.
At the end of the study, the subject working out 3 times per week maintained
their body weight, while the group that was not lifting weights lost about 7
54
pounds. This type of weight loss is very typical with this disease (to be clear, a
low protein diet alone will not cause this kind of rapid weight loss).
The group lifting weights also saw increases in muscle strength and muscle
size. Meanwhile the group that was not weight training lost some muscle and a
little bit of strength.

this research does show that weight training
alone can build muscle even in these people who for medical reasons can barely
reach the minimum daily requirement of protein. From this collection of research it seems that the range of 70-120 grams of
protein per day was enough to allow for substantial muscle growth. Going below
this range did not cause muscle loss, but it also did not result in large
increases in muscle mass.

Another one [Research by Burke DG, 2001]:

In this study Forty-two men between the ages of 18 and 31 were
divided into 3 groups. The first group supplemented their diet with an
additional 0.54 grams of protein per pound of body weight.
To put this into perspective, for a 180-pound man that’s almost an EXTRA 100
grams of protein per day from protein powder. This is the equivalent of taking
about 5 extra scoops of protein powder every day in addition to your normal
protein intake!
The second group took the same amount of extra protein plus an additional
0.045 grams of creatine per pound body weight (about 10 grams of creatine per
day for a 180 pound man). The third group received 0.54 grams of maltodextrin
56
(a simple carbohydrate) per pound of body weight as their supplement (the
placebo group).
The whey protein group gained about 5 pounds in six weeks (thats as far as protein can get you! ), while the placebo
group somehow managed to gain an insignificant 2 pounds. Impressively, the
group taking creatine gained 8.8 pounds of lean tissue mass! .

Another Research study published in 2002 by Rozenek et a:

73 healthy men were
assigned to an 8-week workout program and divided into three diet groups.
• Group 1 consumed an extra 2010 Calories per day that included an extra
106 grams of protein.
• Group 2 consumed an extra 2010 Calories but only 24 extra grams of
protein.
• Group 3 did the same 8 week long workout program, but didn’t have to
drink the extra 2010 calories.

results:

After 8 weeks all 3 groups made significant gains in fatfree
mass.
The high protein group (2010 extra calories + 106 grams extra protein daily) gained 6 pounds
the
Carbohydrate group 2010 extra calories + 24 grams extra protein daily ) gained almost
7.5 pounds of lean mass
The group who did not receive any supplements (Placebo)
still gained over 3 pounds of fat free mass.
So we see here that the group that took less protein actually gained MORE muscle...!

No matter how the story is
spun, if you are working out, taking a little protein, a lot of protein, protein with
carbs, protein with over 2000 extra total calories per day, or no protein at all
you should expect to gain about 2-7 pounds of lean mass after roughly 2-4
months of working out.

 

[Lateralus]

I think the message was 1-1.5 grams of protein per pound.. Not sure that's correct though. Without looking it up, I remember it to be:
0.8 grams/Kg (not pounds) recommended for the average male non-trainer.
1-1.5 grams/Kg for the average recreational trainer.

As per your suggestion 70 grams would cover you (you specifically), when not training for size/strength
120 grams would be enough for recreational training.

Anything above, within the 40% /dietary intake might be even better. So why not go for it? Proteins are harder to digest than carbs and the process of converting it to energy is more "expensive", making them great while cutting also. (You'll feel full faster and for longer)

As for meal frequency I don't think there is any real need, when realating to hypertrofy only, to be concerned about anything besides pre/post workout meals.
But like Waray i've never read anything conclusive on that.

I'd like to add, that I approve of Waray's suggestions to your workout. As far as i'm concerned less is definitely more, when it comes to the number of exercises.
You should stick with the best and avoid iso's as much as possible. You might consider the added work better, and it is. But in my opinion iso's just wastes energy, which would have been put to better use on better excersises.
For iso's I considder Calf raises necessary and Barbell Curls useful

 

[Lateralus]

Oh.. A lot af activity on this thread. Didn't see the protein research post, before posting mine. I'll stick with my statement though. We know proteins are necessary regardless of the actual amount. So why ristrict them?

I think you should emphasize on the suggestions made to your workout.

 

[bardocgr]

Oh.. A lot af activity on this thread. Didn't see the protein research post, before posting mine. I'll stick with my statement though. We know proteins are necessary regardless of the actual amount. So why ristrict them?

I think you should emphasize on the suggestions made to your workout.

Of course, im not gonna restrict my protein intake, Im gonna be getting about 110-120 gr daily..

And yes you are right!! i need to emphasize on my workout, ill try what you guys suggested and simplify it. So you ALL agree I should simplify it? Will it be enough?

its hard to believe I will get any results with such litle effort.
i am doing 1 set of each exercise thats why i used lots of exercises (i though- well i cant overtrain if Im only doing 1 set !) slowly executing each one, and Im hardly staying in the gym for 40 mins. If i simplify it more it would be too easy wouldnt it? Maybe change the reps- instead of 1 do 2?
has anyone tried it? - any results ?

Thank you !

 

[Totentanz]

Those studies are pretty weak.

I'm not sure I could get only 120 grams of protein a day if I tried. Just through my daily meals when I am only maintaining my weight, I get roughly 200 grams of protein at a minimum. I'm not going to post studies, but my anecdotal experience tells me that more protein (not sure to what upper limit) can be better. My last bulk, I was getting 300-400 grams a day and I experienced the best gains I have in years. When I am cutting, I keep it high around that area too.

Another postive aspect of protein aside from building muscle is that it is harder for your body to store as fat, so extra calories as protein might be a little safer than if they were extra calories from carbs or fats. Also keep in mind that protein is essential for a lot of bodily functions and pretty much everything in your entire body is regulated by proteins... so why limit protein intake when you are doing an activity such as weightlifting? The average person might need no more than 70 grams to maintain all biological processes in the body... but are you an average person?

 

[Totentanz]

Oh and about your routine...

I would not change it at this point. I would finish out your cycle then before you SD, figure out what you are going to do next cycle - preferrably a more simplified routine - then test maxes for your next cycle and after that take your SD. I do not like changing exercises mid cycle and you are already halfway through the 5s, might as well just finish it out now.

 

[Lateralus]

"but any more than 120 gr will be wasted and wont have any effects on you what so ever"
Didn't want to go further into to the whole protein-thing, but had to comment on this: Proteins are as good a source of energy as any of the other macro-nutrients. Nothing is wasted.

Anyway:
I already stated that you should definitely simplify. But of course, you should by no means decrease the overall volume.
The point is to remove less efective exercises, and focus on the more effective.
This would in your case mean increasing sets for the remaining exercises. Do as many sets as your work capacity alows you.. As you advance, choose sets over exercices. At least until you have gain the desired size.

Edit: Again didn't read the post above, before this was posted.
I would not recommend implementing this mid cycle either.

 

[bardocgr]

Thanks for your feedback on my routine Totentanz ! i appreciate it..!

Those studies are pretty weak.

I'm not sure I could get only 120 grams of protein a day if I tried. Just through my daily meals when I am only maintaining my weight, I get roughly 200 grams of protein at a minimum. I'm not going to post studies, but my anecdotal experience tells me that more protein (not sure to what upper limit) can be better. My last bulk, I was getting 300-400 grams a day and I experienced the best gains I have in years. When I am cutting, I keep it high around that area too.

Another postive aspect of protein aside from building muscle is that it is harder for your body to store as fat, so extra calories as protein might be a little safer than if they were extra calories from carbs or fats. Also keep in mind that protein is essential for a lot of bodily functions and pretty much everything in your entire body is regulated by proteins... so why limit protein intake when you are doing an activity such as weightlifting? The average person might need no more than 70 grams to maintain all biological processes in the body... but are you an average person?

Now about protein: I totally respect your opinion about it since I was exactly on that mindset 2 days ago xD , I just believe that the whole protein thing is a -sup company get rich- method which has us believing all those myths for no reason. !

Its not the first time people will be saying things over and over again just because they heard them from some other people who heard from some other people that u must be getting x grams of protein per muscle kg each day ! so they repeat what they heard. While all the people in my gym get tons of protein supplements and all they see is the same slow results (even the ones with good training programs and no over training - adequate sleep etc)

Myself i noticed no difference when getting 300 gr of protein per day and when getting hardly 80 . and I was on a healthy strict diet with low glucamic carbs (not much) and high protein intake. !
In my opinion this man Brad Pilon opened my eyes on this subject.. ! Download the book - you can get it for free if you know where to search- and see for yourself.
What ACTUALLY works is steroids (which i'll never get) and creatine (which i might try someday). -> those 2 came out of researches as well.

Of course its a HUGE change on your mindset if you accept that "protein 'must' be there but huge amounts of it wont change anything".
Anyway... still i get off topic here talking about protein, while my topic is about exercise !!!!
I just got lost in my thoughts once again !! sorry forum :/

 

[bardocgr]

This would in your case mean increasing sets for the remaining exercises. Do as many sets as your work capacity alows you.. As you advance, choose sets over exercices.

hmm Thank you Lateralus !! Ill try to do 3-4 sets of each of the basic exercises..
but this way, hst actually seems like my old way of working out, only back then i focused on 2 muscle groups and not ALL muscles..! Is that all i need to do?

 

[Lateralus]

Any way of working out should folow this aproach to be effective. And the progression schemes would also look like what is found in any sensible rutine.
You can use the best exercises, fill out the HST template and train away with pretty good results. This way you'll follow the "one size fits all", which ofcourse leaves room for better results.

What i find makes HST better than any guess and experience aproach is, that it is a set of principles based on actual reseach. These principles and all the research is publicly available and referenced. The author (Brian) has made the effort of translating this into usable methods.
To take full advantage of HST, you need to understand these priciples. With that knowledge, you will be able to uptimize your rutine, to fit you the best.. Without having to guess and try.

Hope this didn't sound to much like a commercial.

 

[bardocgr]

Any way of working out should folow this aproach to be effective. And the progression schemes would also look like what is found in any sensible rutine.
You can use the best exercises, fill out the HST template and train away with pretty good results. This way you'll follow the "one size fits all", which ofcourse leaves room for better results.

What i find makes HST better than any guess and experience aproach is, that it is a set of principles based on actual reseach. These principles and all the research is publicly available and referenced. The author (Brian) has made the effort of translating this into usable methods.
To take full advantage of HST, you need to understand these priciples. With that knowledge, you will be able to uptimize your rutine, to fit you the best.. Without having to guess and try.

Hope this didn't sound to much like a commercial.

No you said it well.. Where can i find complete understandable knowledge of this ? Is it too scientific? Will i be able to understand ? Can I have a link plz?

 

[Lateralus]

I did a lot of very accessible reading on the official HST website. Articles like this one http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html are quick to take in, and would serve as inspiration for further reading. There are references, if you'd like the more scientific angle.
There is also a downloadable FAQ over there.. Unfortunatly the forum is pretty much inactive.
There's heaps of knowledge on this site as well, and I think this is the go to HST site presently.

 

[Totentanz]

Why did you post about the diet and protein if you already have your mind made up? I don't understand. I was under the impression you were asking about it. I really don't understand how you can think that 70 - 120 grams is going to work for everybody considering the population is made up of all different sizes of people. Obviously someone who is considerably smaller will need less protein and someone considerably larger will need more. Just saying 'always eat x grams of protein a day and you will be fine' seems like a huge error considering everything else in your diet should be based on bodyweight... total calories needed per day is based on bodyweight, even dosages for drugs are all based on bodyweight.

Also, just as an aside, if it is a big conspiracy by the supplement companies then you can go ahead and believe that, but I regularly get 200 grams just from whole food sources and milk... protein powders aren't even necessary unless you don't know how to eat. BTW, maybe check out The Protein Book by Lyle Mcdonald if you want to get an unbiased take on protein requirements, he probably cites plenty of studies in the book too.

 

[waray214]

i have to agree with totentanz on the protein issue. that study seems a little weak and erroneous. adequate protein intake is obviously a necessity for muscle building. i find it hard to believe that a guy of your size, 85 kg which is roughly 187 pounds, could fully optimize your muscle building capabilities with only 70-120 g's of protein. i really don't think that is sufficient and i think most people would agree. i also agree with totentanz that it would be hard for me to consume only 70-120 g's of protein per day even if i made a conscious effort to do so. just with the natural foods you eat, you should hit that protein mark with relative ease. i personally would suggest an intake of 1-1.5 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight or even more to fully optimize muscle gain. i personally have found the best/leanest gains off of near 2 grams/lb of protein. again, it all depends on your goals as well. i'd say if you're cutting, you'd probably need to even emphasize the protein more and go a little lower on the carbs. if you're bulking, keep protein at a good level and up the carbs, especially morning and pre and post-workout to ensure proper energy levels, muscle recuperation, and adequate glycogen levels for muscle building. consume protein! like lateralus said, i see no reason to purposefully restrict protein intake in the name of optimizing your muscle gain.

as far as your routine goes, are you seeing decent results so far? i agree with totentanz, that to an extent if you're seeing results, i wouldnt alter your routine midway through the cycle. finish your current cycle and make the appropriate changes next cycle. if you feel like your current routine really isnt doing much and is too flawed, make the few changes as suggested.

you also commented you're only doing 1 set per exercise...it's generally recommended for first-time hst goers to do the "vanilla" hst which is 1 set for 15s, 2 for 10s, and 3 for 5s. this is what i've done and can vouch for it's effectiveness

best of luck! i hope you dont feel attacked by any of these responses. i think you brought up some thought-provoking ideas and topics for debate.