Could I please get some feedback on my workout routine? Is it good?

Why did you post about the diet and protein if you already have your mind made up? I don't understand. I was under the impression you were asking about it. I really don't understand how you can think that 70 - 120 grams is going to work for everybody considering the population is made up of all different sizes of people. Obviously someone who is considerably smaller will need less protein and someone considerably larger will need more. Just saying 'always eat x grams of protein a day and you will be fine' seems like a huge error considering everything else in your diet should be based on bodyweight... total calories needed per day is based on bodyweight, even dosages for drugs are all based on bodyweight.

Also, just as an aside, if it is a big conspiracy by the supplement companies then you can go ahead and believe that, but I regularly get 200 grams just from whole food sources and milk... protein powders aren't even necessary unless you don't know how to eat. BTW, maybe check out The Protein Book by Lyle Mcdonald if you want to get an unbiased take on protein requirements, he probably cites plenty of studies in the book too.


I believe you missunderstood what I said man..
First of all, i wanted advice about my routines, htc is totally new to me and i LOVE it to be honest - im really convised about its resutls and i wanna see formyself. So I needed to get more info about my routine and listen to what you guys have to say about it so that I can learn from you.
Ii just got led away and let out my thoughts about protein - imho if you search about this you might as well find out for yourself. Otherwise we can stay here and argue about it all day long without getting anywhere.

What i meant by 70-120 gr was that for smaller ppl 70 grams are adequate and for larger ones 120 is good. So you see bodyweight (not even bodyweight - lean body mass to be accurate) is significant. Actually there are lots of things I study lately (when it comes to nutrition and food) , and I'll make sure to check The Protein Book by Lyle Mcdonald - see if it has any valid info.

I just wanted to debate the subject with you guys, (the protein thing) and see what you have to say about it. Just please be open minded, and consider a slack chance of the whole matter being a smart way for companies to get more money. (something like cancer treatment - it has been found lots and lots of years ago but you see drug industry is so powerful that wouldn't let such info get public). Still I'm letting my mind open more and more topics ! :P So much to say about such matters.
Though I'm open to accept any fact that you propose to me..If I'm wrong I'm just gonna admit so. I just truly believe the whole protein thing is a big lie .


I would like to discuss about those matters with people who care and share interest for knowledge.. debate about it, and learn more btw. If anyone is interested i can pm you my email and we can talk.. (i just don't want people to think I'm spamming the forum)
 
pages 28-29 said:
This is a very important point. One of the major ways we prove cause-and-effect
relationships in science is with something called a ‘dose response’. Meaning if
eating extra protein truly caused you to build extra muscle, then the more
29
protein you eat, the more muscle you should have. Since we now have evidence
that this does not occur, we need to examine the reasons why this relationship
doesn’t exist.

The only evidence he sites is his own previous comment:

Obviously, even though our protein intake can vary by a factor of ten
times, our muscle mass cannot.
There is no culture of people on earth who have ten times more muscle than
another culture.
Who ever suggested that it was a 1 to 1 ratio? And just because it isn’t doesn’t mean there is no relationship.

page 47 said:
This research clearly shows that approximately 120 grams of protein per day
was enough for a group of men taking steroids and lifting weights to gain 13.5
pounds of lean mass! Even in their steroid-heightened anabolic state, 120
grams was enough to supply all of the necessary building blocks for a 13.5-
pound gain in lean mass.
Since all individuals studied ingested the same 120g of protein (interestingly the same amount he says is the most you need) there is no way to know if some had ingested more protein that they wouldn’t have gained more LBM. It only shows that working out and taking steroids builds LBM better than not working out and not taking steroids, not how much effect protein intake had on those gains since protein intake was a constant.

page 50 said:
In a study published in the scientific journal ‘Medicine Science, Sports and
Exercise’, 2 groups of people were asked to follow weight-training programs
[Burke DG, 2003].
He sites this study but it’s not in the references?

The only study by Burke he sited was this:

page 56 said:
The whey protein group gained about 5 pounds in six weeks, while the placebo
group somehow managed to gain an insignificant 2 pounds. Impressively, the
group taking creatine gained 8.8 pounds of lean tissue mass! (We will discuss
how creatine works later) [Burke DG, 2001].
Which seems to show that those who supplemented protein gained more LBM than those who did not (see his own quote) and the study’s abstract:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11591884

Our purpose was to assess muscular adaptations during 6 weeks of resistance training in 36 males randomly assigned to supplementation with whey protein (W; 1.2 g/kg/day), whey protein and creatine monohydrate (WC; 0.1 g/kg/day), or placebo (P; 1.2 g/kg/day maltodextrin). Measures included lean tissue mass by dual energy x-ray absorptiometry, bench press and squat strength (1-repetition maximum), and knee extension/flexion peak torque. Lean tissue mass increased to a greater extent with training in WC compared to the other groups, and in the W compared to the P group (p < .05). Bench press strength increased to a greater extent for WC compared to W and P (p < .05). Knee extension peak torque increased with training for WC and W (p < .05), but not for P. All other measures increased to a similar extent across groups. Continued training without supplementation for an additional 6 weeks resulted in maintenance of strength and lean tissue mass in all groups. Males that supplemented with whey protein while resistance training demonstrated greater improvement in knee extension peak torque and lean tissue mass than males engaged in training alone. Males that supplemented with a combination of whey protein and creatine had greater increases in lean tissue mass and bench press than those who supplemented with only whey protein or placebo. However, not all strength measures were improved with supplementation, since subjects who supplemented with creatine and/or whey protein had similar increases in squat strength and knee flexion peak torque compared to subjects who received placebo.
I’m not sure why he sites this study since it seems to weakly support increased protein intake, specifically whey protein (more on that later), increases LBM more than no supplementation.


Cont: too long for one post.
 
Last edited:
Here is an overview, which though 5 years old, talks about the general state of the research. I deem it significant to this discussion since most of the research he sites pre-dates this paper:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129150/

Recent Trends in Protein Requirements
A number of recent studies have found varying results from any given protein intake when factors such as the timing of protein ingestion, the pattern of digestion, and energy intake of the participant were varied [18]. In this context it may be too simplistic to administer a 'general' protein requirement. What is known however is that amino acids stimulate potent anabolic effects. Further, it appears that a relatively higher protein intake can positively effect indexes of performance, increase positive nitrogen balance, and enhance lean body mass. Wolfe summarizes by stating that:
"our results, along with virtually all data in the literature on the topic, suggest that increasing amino acid intake will increase muscle mass, with all other variables remaining constant. Whereas this concept runs counter to popular perception, real-life examples abound in obese individuals who have significantly elevated muscle mass despite living sedentary lives. Thus, it is likely that increasing amino acid intake...will promote muscle anabolism, whether in depleted individuals such as the elderly or in active athletes trying to increase muscle mass. The exact nutritional approach will determine the extent of anabolic response (emphasis added) [18]."
Summary of protein requirements
In summary protein requirements appear to be elevated for strength training athletes. This increased need is attributed to enhanced oxidation rates of endogenous amino acids during exercise [27], the need for increased substrate to repair damaged muscle tissue [12], and the capacity to maintain elevated protein synthesis for greater amounts of muscle tissue [18]. Techniques utilized to measure protein requirements include nitrogen balance methods [15-17], tracer techniques [13], and performance and body composition techniques [28,29]. Nitrogen Balance techniques suggest that the protein requirements to attain zero nitrogen balance range from 1.2–2.2 grams of protein per kg of bodyweight [1,7,14,23,24,31-33]. Further, there is evidence that nitrogen retention increases as nitrogen uptake increases [16]. Hegsted [16] presented a series of studies which suggested that 20% of the nitrogen above maintenance is retained. However, these results have not directly translated to enhanced lean body mass [13,15,16]. There are two rationales for these findings. The first is that nitrogen retention is inherently overestimated [16], largely because nitrogen losses are underestimated [16]. A second rationale is that the overall length of most nitrogen balance studies do not allow for a statistically significant measure of LBM increases [1].
Tracer techniques have been recently employed and generally support the protein requirements obtained through nitrogen balance studies [13,24]. In fact Tarnopolsky et al. [13] found that protein synthesis increased from low (0.8 g/kg) to moderate (1.4 g/kg) intakes. While there was an 8.6% increase from moderate to high (2.4) protein intakes, these results did not reach significance. The authors suggested that this non significant trend appears to support the suggestion that the real protein requirements of athletes were closer to the 1.8 grams of protein per kg of bodyweight daily. Further, oxidation rates of leucine increased greatly from moderate to high protein intakes. This was taken as evidence that protein intakes above maintenance are oxidized. Unfortunately, these results are slightly confounded by the fact that the higher protein intake occurred through supplementation of whey protein, which enhanced the protein quality of the diet. This may cause an under estimation of the protein needs of athletes had they simply expanded their normal protein sources. Further, whey is a fast digesting protein and is known to naturally increase leucine oxidation rates [5,6]. Therefore, the increased oxidation rates may have been related to both an increase in protein intake, as well as a higher proportion of that intake coming from whey protein. Future studies will need to delineate between these variables.
Recently there have been a number of studies which have investigated higher protein intakes on indexes of performance and body composition [28-30]. A number of these studies have supported the efficacy of higher protein intakes, and yielded greater indexes of strength, and enhanced lean body mass [28-30]. This led Wolfe to conclude that increasing protein intake "will increase muscle mass, with all other variables remaining constant [40]."
It is further known that a number of other variables affect protein intake. Perhaps the most critical of these is energy intake. When an individual is in a caloric deficit, protein needs are greater than when the individual is in maintenance or a caloric surplus [34]. Finally it has been recently postulated that a true general protein requirement may be impossible to find considering that studies strongly suggest that different results will be obtained with the same protein intake when a number of variables are manipulated [1]. The remainder of the paper will provide an in depth analysis of a number of these variables.
In a nutshell it says we don’t (didn’t) know enough to make any exact recommendations, however at least some things were apparent:

People who weight train seem to benefit from higher protein intake than those who don’t but that by what mechanisms this operates and how to optimize it is not entirely clear. That both pre (something he fails to address) and possibly post workout protein intake is beneficial possibly due to increased blood flow to the muscles if not also other factors. That type and timing of protein sources is important, such that protein synthesis can be “spiked” more often with fast digesting whey protein or EAAs than constant intake of slower digesting proteins.

I could continue to nitpick what he’s written but I think I’ve made the point.

The single biggest problem I have with his reasoning is the assumption that that which can’t be “proven” beyond a doubt must be false so therefore his assumptions which also can’t be “proven” beyond a doubt must be true. Not buying it.

My second biggest problem is that his 120g/day max protein intake seems arbitrarily based on just one study he sited. Why not 110g/day or 130g/day? Where’s the evidence to support such a recommendation?

My third biggest problem was also mentioned by Tot, that just because one has increased protein intake doesn’t mean it all has to come from supplements. None of my 1g/lb. of LBM/day on non-workout days comes from supplements unless cottage cheese and liquid egg whites are considered supplements. While I could eat beans and rice (to get a complete protein) and it would be cheaper I prefer more concentrated sources of “quality” calories (meaning only 30% from fats and little or no refined sugar except at workout time) since eating 3000-3200 “quality” kCal/day is a chore for me without feeling overly full. Plus the thought of putting beans and rice in the blender to make a shake just isn’t working for me. ;)

Only a small amount, 2 scoops, of my workout day protein 1.75g/lb. of LBM/day comes in the form of a whey protein supplement. I use it pre workout and mixed in my shakes throughout the day because there is some evidence that it does help and no conclusive evidence that it doesn’t.

Another benefit I find in “supplementing“ protein, actually all my macro-nutrients to some extent in the form of shakes, is that I can better control my daily calorie intake ensuring I’m getting enough macro-nutrients to not shortchange my gains in LBM while minimizing gaining fat.

Am I pissing most of my protein away or burning it off as fuel or storing it as fat? Possibly, but I don’t see that as a problem since I would just have to find the extra calories in the form of carbohydrates anyway. So, from my point of view better safe than sorry from a protein standpoint.

I do feel that too much is made out of protein intake while EFA intake is comparatively drowned out. IMO, that’s one of the biggest problems caused by people’s protein paranoia is that they lose site of the forest for the trees.
 
Back
Top