Countering Insulin Desensitizers

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So relax, stress raises cortisol which is bad.

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Yeah, i know that. But this bodybuilding thing is frustrating and interesting at the same time. Everytime i learn about a new thing and embraced it, another comes along to contradict it! Basically, very little additions to my knowledge when things cancel each other out so often.

Lyle, how do you maintain your sanity (or lack of it :D) when you are dealing with so many different kinds of ideas everyday?

Lastly, what are the core principles you have embraced and consistently used it?
 
&gt;Yeah, i know that. But this bodybuilding thing is frustrating and interesting at the same time. Everytime i learn about a new thing and embraced it, another comes along to contradict it! Basically, very little additions to my knowledge when things cancel each other out so often.

Here's the best solution I've found: look for the commonalities, ignore the details. When you do that, you get far less confused.

That is, what do ALL sucessful training protocols for strength and size have in common?

1. Apply progressive overload
2. Don't overtrain you
3. Don't get you injured

Everythign else is optimization and details. As long as you get those three right, you're ahead of the game. Get any of them wrong, and you're not.

What do all successful diets have in common?
1. Create a caloric deficit
2. Sufficient protein and EFA's
3. Can be followed long-term
4. Control hunger/appetite at least marginally
5. Maybe one or two others.

The rest is implementation, details and endless argument, an issue of many many factors. But get those right and you're on the right track; get any of them wrong and you're not.

&gt;Lyle, how do you maintain your sanity (or lack of it ) when you are dealing with so many different kinds of ideas everyday?

a. As I saw on a sticker once &quot;I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it.&quot;

b. I sit around and build models of physiology. A good model has to explain ALL of the data or it's not a good model (this is a tenet of science even if scientists tend to become a little too attached to their models and proceed to ignore ALL data taht doesn't fit it).

I don't let new pieces of data that may *appear* contradictory freak me out; it just means that the model needs to be revised to include it. If I can't do that, there's a problem with my model.

Between that approach and looking in terms of generalities, I don't get bothered by much. I live a very full life.

&gt;Lastly, what are the core principles you have embraced and consistently used it?

1. Don't play poker with a guy named Fats
2. Don't date a girl with a tatoo
3. No matter where you go, there you are.

More seriously, core principles in terms of what?

Lyle
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">a. As I saw on a sticker once &quot;I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every moment of it.&quot;

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I have heard something about you taking medication for a psychological condition? Sorry for intruding, i am just curious. Tell me more about yourself? particulars? Keep in mind, i am not gay (VC, heard that?
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), just curious about people halfway round the world.


</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">&gt;Lastly, what are the core principles you have embraced and consistently used it?

1. Don't play poker with a guy named Fats
2. Don't date a girl with a tatoo
3. No matter where you go, there you are.

More seriously, core principles in terms of what?

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Training is taken care of by HST. So, i would like to know you core principles for nutrition (bulking) and supplementation. And maybe some insider's tricks? Cos i am sick and tired of hearing things from Flex and the likes. BTW, i saw an article by you in Flex recently. I thought u hate mainstream stuff? Trying to make a living also? hehe
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I'm bumping this thread... seems relevant given some of the discussion on CLA and insulin (in)sensitivity.

I was sort of panicking about developing insulin resistance, but recalled that Lyle once tried to explain that this condition isn't necessarily undesirable.

This is from an earlier post in this thread:

Most books tend to oversimplify the role of insulin in the body: some say it's the most growth promoting hormone in the body, some say it will just make you fat.
The problem is that they are both right. Insulin's effects are non-tissue specific, it affects muscle, liver and fat cells (and many others). That is, it is a general storage hormone, increasing nutrient storage in the body.
Of course, how a given cell responds to insulin (insulin sensitivity) can vary. In an ideal world, for mass gains, you'd want muscle to be highly insulin sensitive, fat cells insulin resistant. This would make it harder to gain fat as nutrients would preferentially get driven into muscle cells.
Long-term fish oil supplements appear to cause this to some degree (increasing insulin receptor number on muscle cells, decreasing them on fat cells).
When yo'ure dieting, being insulin resistant is actually better. When fat cells are insulin resistant, they give up fatty acids more easily. When muscle cells are insulin resistant, they can't use glucose well which means they have to find another fuel source: fatty acids. This also spares glucose for the brain.
Unfortunately, as you get lean, insulin sensitivity goes up and up and up in both muscle and fat cells. This is part of why it gets harder to mobilize fat as you get leaner. It also means that you tend to gain fat back faster (because fat cells are so insulin sensitive).

I have a question though. If you are using supplements that may contribute to insulin resistance, do you want to perhaps take supplements promoting insulin sensitivity around the time of your pre- or post- (or intra-) workout carb+protein meal?
 
I'd guess it does not matter much. If you wanted to be nitpicky, I think you should take the insulin sensitizer with post-exercise meal if you are cutting, and with pre-exercise meal if you are bulking.

Here are my reasons.

When you are bulking, you want all the nutrient to go to muscles -- You are likely to accomplish this if you take the sensitizer with pre-exercise meal. Nutrients, instead of staying in the blood stream to be burned, will be shuttled away to muscle and fat. With a post-exercise meal, you don't need your insulin sensitivity to be high to accomplish this.

If you are cutting, you want the all the nutrient to stay in the blood stream as long as possible, so that they can be burned up. So, taking it with pre-exercise meal would not be good. Taking the sensitizer with a post-exercise meal would minimize the impact of the sensitizer
 
Interesting idea, I hadn't considered such a subtle difference in tactics.

Just seems like everything I take -- especially EC and CLA -- purportedly reduce insulin sensitivity.

There are a lot of insulin sensitizers, mimickers and even secretagogues out there (vanadium, ALA, chromium, 4-hydroxyisoleucine, etc). I just wanted to know how to use them most efficiently.
 
Hi, Jon
[you wrote]
&gt; Just seems like everything I take -- especially EC and CLA --
&gt; purportedly reduce insulin sensitivity.

I know how you feel. Lyle's comment &quot;your body hates you&quot; seems apt here.

&gt; There are a lot of insulin sensitizers, mimickers and even
&gt; secretagogues out there (vanadium, ALA, chromium,
&gt; 4-hydroxyisoleucine, etc). I just wanted to know how to
&gt; use them most efficiently.

My guess is that the above mentioned supplements will not have the desired effect. Did you know that CLA and EFA are insulin _sensitizers_ for obese mice (people?&#33;)? Similarly, I believe ALA's insulin sensitizing effects are directed to obese mice as well, not in lean mice (people).

The problem here is that the insulin &quot;insensitivity&quot; in lean mice is not the same thing as that in obese mice.

In both lean and obese critters, insulin spikes occur because their bodies are having difficult time finding storage space for excess energy. In the obese critters, it is as if their bodies want to spend any extra energy and not get fatter. Thus, it takes higher and higher dose of insulin to shuttle glucose into fat cells. On the other hand, the lean critters are insulin &quot;insensitive&quot; because existing energy depot (fat cells) cannot store nutrients without the &quot;pressure&quot; generated by insulin. Once in a while when excess energy comes in (most of times it is in caloric deficit mode), therefore, the body has to do everything it can to store that. Naturally, one will have a high insulin spikes.

Thus, in both lean and obese critters, the high insulin concentration is due to the body's attempt to force glucose into &quot;unavailable&quot; energy storage space. But as you can see, the bodies are attempting to do different things for different states of leanness. In one case, the bodies want to get rid of excess energy; in the other case, the bodies want to store it.
CLA / EFA make fat cells more efficient in releasing energy for both lean and obese critters. In the obese critters, that results in insulin _sensitivity_, because by making bodies spend more energy, the bodies can find more room to store energy. Thus, it won't take as much insulin to shuttle nutrient to the available storage space.

In the lean critters, CLA / EFA's effect on fat cells results in insensitivity, because as the supplements make fat cells inefficient at storing energy, it takes more and more insulin to force nutrients into the fat cells.

I think the preceding logic may extend to other supplements you mentioned.

==============================

BTW, the effects of insulin insensitivity are _traditionally_ considered harmful in the context of obesity / diabetes research. I don't think there has been any research on the effect of &quot;insulin insensitivity&quot; in the context of lean critters.
It is something that is probably rarely seen in nature, because in normal lean critters, when excess energy comes in, they are stored efficiently (fat calls can multiply). For insulin insensitivity to persist in lean critters, their fat cells (energy storage mechanism) must to be messed up.
 
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