Daily Shoulder Routine?

Discussion in 'Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST)' started by Mojo77, Aug 4, 2015.

  1. Mojo77

    Mojo77 Member

    hi all,

    Despite doing landmine presses three times a week with HST, my shoulders are really underdevelopped and weak. Being blessed with narrow shoulders doesn't help it either.

    So I'd like to bring up my shoulders and I think of the following small routine done 5 days a week:
    Cable Side Raises
    Cable front Raises
    Face pulls
    Band pull aparts

    All done for 1 set of around 10 to begin with. It is a short 5 minutes routine. Of course I will use progression in adding reps/weight.

    Would this be too much volume? Should I better stick with 3 times a week integrated in the hst routine? Or is this just fine and Will it give my shoulders an extra boost to grow quickly as the Delts are full of androgen receptors and this way they Will receive plenty of local growth factors?
     
  2. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    I would advise you to do better exercises ...

    OHP
    Military
    Push Press
    BTN
    BTN Push Press
    Clean & Press
     
    adpowah likes this.
  3. adpowah

    adpowah Active Member

    Agreed with Jester. I like Face Pulls but as a prehab exercise, for the rest I'd replace them with anything Jester mentioned. 1x10 daily is probably fine. You will know pretty soon if you can't handle the volume, I'd just suggest keeping your weight progression slow. Maybe even set up like a minimum completion time to progress in weight.
     
  4. Mojo77

    Mojo77 Member

    @Jester ,

    I know. Sadly enough, all overhead pressing is strictly forbidden in my case. 90° degree angle max.

    @adpowah ,

    thanks indeed, I have to stay careful on the shoulder
     
  5. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Shoulder injury?

    if you have to stick to raises, I would do lower weights and higher volume. As in, HIGHER volume. Sets of 20,25 using a myo-rep protocol etc.
     
    adpowah likes this.
  6. Mojo77

    Mojo77 Member

    @Jester

    Yes, I believe it is called acromanium type 3, really messes up and impinges my supraspinatus, especially in the right shoulder if I go any higher than 90 degrees.
    Thank you for that advice. I will certainly work up to that higher volume.

    I admit, my shoulders are weak as hell, I can only do about 1 set of 10 on cable side raises with NO weight on the loading sleeves before it starts to hurt. OK, I do have to raise up the chain between the handle and the low pulley and also the sleeves bar itself on the pulley which has a 1:1 ratio (no leverage), so that is a bit of weight. But still...
     
  7. Old and Grey

    Old and Grey Super Moderator Staff Member

    The problem with any of the behind the neck exercises is that they push your shoulders’ external rotation to the limit under a load. You put your shoulder in a terrible position from which to push or pull, with impinged stability, placing serious strain on the rotator cuff.

    With your existing shoulder problems, I would stick to face pulls and external and internal one hand band pulls in the lateral position. Then slowly introduce light DB OH Presses in the neutral position. Jester's suggestion of doing high rep lateral raises with light weights and using myo reps is a good idea as well.
     
  8. k_dean_curtis

    k_dean_curtis Member

    Never do "behind the neck" anything. You WILL tear up your shoulders.

    Read Starting Strength pressing section or check out coach Rip's videos on Pressing. You have to shrug your shoulders during the top of the press to prevent impingement, regardless of whether you have healthy shoulders or not. Dumbbells are fine if that helps with the hand positioning.

    Do your shoulders hurt doing deadlifts or rows? If you are doing those, and standing presses, you don't need other shoulder exercises. Be careful with Bench also.
     
  9. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    <--- vaguely amused at the BTN fears ... has anyone mentioned this to the millions of Chinese and European lifters that do them on a regular basis. Klokov, anyone?

    Simple rule of thumb is exactly the same one as for squatting stance; you won't know unless and until you try them whether they are for you or not.
     
  10. Mojo77

    Mojo77 Member

    After testing a daily shoulder routine for about a week it turns out it's probably a little bit too much.
    I'll finally settle with an incorporation in my hst program. I will be doing them with 5's, 10's and 15's but will be progressing in reps with the intention to get to 10, 20 and 30 resp. in 1, 2 and 3 rep increments before adding new weight.

    Some swimming could be done also on off days, but I have to consider how to incorporate this, once a week will probably be enough for now. After 5 days of shoulder workout I did a good swim on the sixth day that literally killed what was left in my shoulders to the point that I couldn't sleep at night from the muscle soreness, especially in the front delts. There was no shoulder pain whatsoever before the swim, a bit of fatigue at most. Since the rest of my body also hurted after the swim, but no longer at night, I'll have to be careful and do a very light swim in the future.

    I want to keep the swim as it should be really good to aid in fat loss later on. Right now, it can prevent froim gaining fat too fast while slow bulking.
    I think of going with 1 light session of backstroke a week to begin with
     
  11. Old and Grey

    Old and Grey Super Moderator Staff Member

    Based on what you wrote, the problem was not the daily shoulder routine as you had no pain before swimming.

    Why not just cut the calories back to stop from gaining weight too fast rather than swimming which you say causes you much pain?

    Doing 5's with/for a physically compromised shoulder, not a good idea.

    Would you race a car with a bad crankshaft? Most would get it fixed first and not on the fly.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2015
    adpowah likes this.
  12. adpowah

    adpowah Active Member

    I ran across this in another thread but figured I would post it for fun. ;)

    Anyways I find when I don't bring the bar all the way down to my traps I can keep my shoulders in a good healthy position for BTN pressing. When I need to press a weight off of my traps it has to be pretty light since my shoulders have to transfer positions.
     
  13. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    This is all kinds of backwards ...

    ... muscles are built in the gym and revealed in the kitchen. You cannot EVER outwork the kitchen. Professional bodybuilders, amateur bodybuilders, power and olympic lifters needing to make a weight class ]-> all do it using diet to achieve lower bodyweight. Cardio is a cherry on top and primarily done for health functions, not aesthetic ones.

    Stop swimming before your shoulder freezes and you need surgery ...
     
  14. Mojo77

    Mojo77 Member

    Thank you all for the replies, I will certainly take them into consideration.

    However. Have you ever seen a swimmer with narrow shoulders? I have not.
    The main idea behind swimming (as well as the program outlined in the tread) is to better develop and broaden my shoulders, within their limits of course.

    Swimming can help in that respect and would be done mainly for aesthetic reasons as to broaden the shoulders.

    While the issue encountered last weekend is certainly an element of concern I still think it was an overuse reaction after an already loaded week of shouldertraining that isn't normally done either. To continue the story. 18 hours after the swim, the pain has subsided and only fatigue remained. 36 hours after the swim, fatigue was gone and recovery mostly complete to the point where 48 hours after the swim a normal 5's training could be performed (even at 5's, I only use like a 3.3 pound dumbell which is pretty light for side raises). I think this is pretty good, since usually, muscle soreness is at its worst during the second day.
    I have been swimming, even just the week before on holiday multiple times, before with zero issues on the shoulders. Granted, it always was without doing shoulder workouts and for shorter bouts with more frequent rests during a single session.

    I know diet is controlled in the kitchen, that is what I do also. However, have you seen any competitive swimmer that isn't cut? I have not.
    From personal experience I know that swimming puts my metabolism in race-mode like no other form of cardio ever would. It is almost like if I was on DNP, the way I'm burning calories like hell. Like other swimmers reactions I've seen, I'd have to be carefull not to overdo it dietwise, or I wouldn't add a single pound no matter what I ate.
    However, in this case the idea would be, during the bulk, to help slow down the weight gain if needed, as in preventing a quarter to half a pound a month at most. So, really the polishing stuff. During a cut, as well, to make the weight loss just that bit easier. I think for this reason, swimming could be excellent, as only already the fact of being immersed in colder water gets you to burn calories, just to keep your temperature in check.
    Given that aside cardio, through the resistance of the water, it is a full body exercice, would make it pretty ideal for both aesthetic and weight loss goals, more than any other form of cardio.

    As a consequence of the above the shoulder workout has been greatly reduced.
    The Front raises have been skipped. I will stick to Landmine presses as those have not given me any problems during the previous hst cycle and are probably enough stimulation for the front delts.
    The band pull aparts have been skipped as well but are replaced with shoulder dislocations, a no weight exercice that has given me fairly good mobility and rehab results in the past.
    Lastly, no more then 3 times a week instead of 5.

    I don't know about the swimming at this point. I might have to skip it, if it is really too much. But I'd like to keep it for at least once a week. I might need a sort of 'start to swim'-program with a slow build up starting at something like twice 4 x 12,5 m with a 30 sec. rest in between each lap (so 8 rests in total). I'd prefer back stroke since it doesn't target the front deltoid specifically and is a similar movement as the shoulder dislocations which could be beneficial for shoulder health.
    If indeed, the lightest start would still give me issues, then sadly enough, I would skip the swimming, as I like to swim and can see the great benefits it can potentially have.

    I have to deal with the shoulder as it is and make it the best I can. As I cannot change the way the bone is formed, it is beyond repair. I can only work around the issues of concern (no overhead or behind the neck-anything), trying to work on mobility (shoulder dislocations), balance (internal, external rotation, scapular elevation and depression) and strength.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2015
  15. Old and Grey

    Old and Grey Super Moderator Staff Member

    Saying you want to build big shoulders by swimming is almost like saying you are going to become a marathoner to build your legs. Competitive swimmers have unusually long arms too but not from swimming. I hope you find the success you seek and not just more damage.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2015
  16. Mojo77

    Mojo77 Member

    No, I'm more a sprinter type. If I engage in some kind of cardio, I do it sprinting.
    As a matter of fact, I just did a 12 minute sprint training session on the stationary bike.
    I divided it pretty well in 6 2-minute blocks:

    2 minutes easy in the sadle warm up

    25 seconds out of the sadle and on the pedals all out sprint at heavy resistance
    95 seconds easy rest cycling in the sadle at low resistance

    20 seconds all out sprint
    100 seconds rest cycling

    15 seconds all out sprint
    105 seconds easy rest cycling

    10 seconds all out sprint
    110 seconds easy rest cycling

    5seconds all out sprints
    115 seconds easy rest cycling

    12 minutes total

    Sprinters are buff, while endurance athletes are always skinny bishes.
    Sprinting is fun to do and aids in gaining size as well.

    I can't stand slow steady cardio anyway, I'll take sprints any time I can,
     
  17. Old and Grey

    Old and Grey Super Moderator Staff Member

  18. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    When @Old and Grey and I meet up for a whiskey some time on his ranch, we're going to save a toast for your shoulders, RIP ...


    Swimming is great exercise, however it is not going to build your shoulders the way you think it will.
     
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  19. Fred

    Fred Member

    Why on earth someone with a weakness/injury/liability is trying to up frequency and volume instead of reahab???
    Even with healthy shoulders, it would be debatable if you should work them everyday, let alone with fragile shoulders.
    Get yourself together man!

    "Have you ever seen a swimmer with narrow shoulders?" - Narrow shoulders (shoulder width) as in bone structure will never, i will repeat will NEVER be wider once your body stops growing. Olympic swimmers are wide in bone structure, it gives them an edge and its off the reasons they get to pro, they have that advantage, just like long runners my benefit from larger caliber on their aortas, but it is NOT trought training, either you have or you dont! Many swimmers have narrow shoulders if go for a recreational level.
     
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