Dan ... "In the Right Now"

Discussion in 'Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST)' started by imported_etothepii, Aug 8, 2007.

  1. Avi1985

    Avi1985 New Member

    If sd has no influnce but helping you to recover, its better for me to do 10 days sd than 14 days sd. Am i right?
    Another question. Lets say my muscles grow with 20 rep range, So it better for me to do 20 reps than 30 reps. Because if i start right away on 30 reps, my muscles would get use to that rep range faster. So starting from 20 reps and gradouly getting to 30 reps range after a few cycles is the best thing for me to do. right?
     
  2. Avi1985

    Avi1985 New Member

    Anyone?
     
  3. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    Avi

    IMO it is better to SD as long as you can, more so if you have extensive conditioning. But that is my opinion!

    Yes...starting from 20 and gradually building up to 30 reps is definitelly the way to go! [​IMG]
     
  4. Avi1985

    Avi1985 New Member

    Thnx man [​IMG]
     
  5. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    Nobody has said that SD has no effect on the muscle tissue, just that we don't seem to have any hard proof that 9-14 days is long enough to undo the muscle's conditioning as much as Bryan's original explanation of SD suggested. He may still be right on the money. As I said before, a 9 day SD definitely does 'something' more than just help me recover (ie. CNS recovery & healing aches and pains) from a hard cycle. I just don't know what that 'something' really is yet.

    Here's a snippet from Bryan that I think fits in well here:
    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">One way to overcome the RBE is to increase the load and/or increase the time that the muscle tissue is exposed to the load. In other words, increase the weight and/or the volume. Both are limited by the CNS. The later is limited by the CNS’s ability to fire up the muscle and maintain contractions at a given intensity (i.e. endurance). The former is limited by the individual’s “strength”.

    One other way that is unique to HST to overcome the stagnating effects of the RBE is by strategically deconditioning (SD) the muscle. The deconditioning effect allows weight loads the muscle has previously grow resistant to cause the desired effect once again. This is because SD helps to undue the RBE to a small extent.

    So, HST uses SD to prepare the muscle to respond to less than maximum weight loads. This is important because maximum weight loads can’t be used often enough over time to really grow quickly.

    Then, HST uses progressive load. This is critical to cope with the effects of the RBE.

    HST does not require that you train to failure because that prevents you from training frequently enough. It’s better to train according to the recovery of the muscle (48 hours) than according to the CNS (up to a week or longer).

    Finally, HST does not utilize useless techniques and methods pushed by bodybuilding magazines such as “muscle confusion”, “pre-exhaustion”, and “intensity” oriented training. All of which are affecting the CNS and not the muscle tissue itself.

    Now, you want to know how many sets you have to use to grow your muscles. If you understood the principles as outlined above you would already know the answer to that question. If you want research on the matter, mechanical-overload studies show that a muscle can be loaded for days to weeks without being unloaded and experience tremendous growth.

    So ask yourself, will any number of sets you could possibly do in one workout equal even 1 hour of constant load? So asking whether you should do 1 set or 2 sets isn’t really relevant unless you are simply interested in how to set up your routine. As far as muscle growth goes, the more time under tension the more potent the growth stimulus.</div>

    Avi, I would also suggest that you review Brayn's thoughts on volume. He makes lots of valuable suggestions and observations.
     
  6. Avi1985

    Avi1985 New Member

    Can you please give me a link?
     
  7. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    <div>
    (Avi1985 @ Sep. 03 2007,05:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Can you please give me a link?</div>
    Look above??? [​IMG] ^^^^^^^ [​IMG]
     
  8. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (Avi1985 @ Sep. 01 2007,18:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If sd has no influnce but helping you to recover, its better for me to do 10 days sd than 14 days sd. Am i right?
    Another question. Lets say my muscles grow with 20 rep range, So it better for me to do 20 reps than 30 reps. Because if i start right away on 30 reps, my muscles would get use to that rep range faster. So starting from 20 reps and gradouly getting to 30 reps range after a few cycles is the best thing for me to do. right?</div>
    Are you talking about total reps? Because if so, I would just do 20 total reps throughout the cycle. But if you must do more reps, then start with 30 and taper down to 20 as the weights get heavier. So 2x15 during the 15s, maybe 3x10 for the first week of 10s, then 2x10 the second week, then 4x5 during the 5s.
    I don't know anyone who has completed a cycle doing 6 sets of 5 reps during the 5s. Seems like that never works, unless you aren't doing deadlifts or squats. Even then, 6x5 top sets sounds pretty hard.
     
  9. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    Thanks Tot, I guess I forgot to add some details...30's during 5's is doable but damn hard to get right! [​IMG]
     
  10. Lol

    Lol Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (Totentanz @ Sep. 04 2007,00:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I don't know anyone who has completed a cycle doing 6 sets of 5 reps during the 5s.  Seems like that never works, unless you aren't doing deadlifts or squats.  Even then, 6x5 top sets sounds pretty hard.</div>
    6 Sets across with your top loads for 5s would kill a large gorilla!  [​IMG] That would probably be an equivalent TUT to about 60 reps with your 15RM. Even if you managed it by clustering, your CNS would be so fried that you would have to drop your w/o frequency. The stronger you get, the more the big compounds will drain your CNS.

    Some more helpful insights from Bryan:

    <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So, with a goal of gaining shear muscle size, HST advocates that you start with the “minimums” and then increase things as you are able. Use the minimum effective load, the minimum effective number of exercises, and the minimum effective volume. The reason we use these minimums is to ensure the maximum effective frequency. The reason we strive for the maximum frequency of loading is to approximate the effects of mechanical overload protocols used in the research that produce incredible rates of muscular hypertrophy.

    *having the liberty to train twice per day, and/or everyday opens up the possibility to significantly increase training volume.

    As long as a &quot;highly conditioned&quot; person stays within his/her limits of exercise tolerance, doing more generally means better gains. I don't mean more fatigue, I mean more reps with a given load... Sounds like one in the same but it isn't really. To understand, consider the &quot;effort&quot; (A.K.A. CNS activation) it requires to do the 1st as compared to the last rep of your 10 rep max. The tension produced on the tissue doesn't change from the 1st rep to the last. The only thing that changes is the amount of CNS activiation required to contract the muscle under load.

    So, more reps doesn't necessarily mean more fatigue IF you can get enough rest inbetween sets. To get more and more rest, simply do 2 workouts spread out by several hours. Hence, the value of training twice per day.

    Another advantage is being able to do more volume per bodypart during one session. You can split the body up into 2 halves and train half in the AM and the other half in the PM. This essentially allows you to double the amount of volume per session per bodypart.

    My comments about training twice per day, 3 times per week as optimal stem from the ability to increase the volume per bodypart, and still having edequate rest inbetween training sessions (M,W,F).

    *I know this doesn't contribute much to the thread, but its important to keep in mind that the relationships between load and volume are not static. For example, given sufficient load, adding more volume after gains have stopped is a legitamate strategy. Like wise, given sufficient volume, simply increasing the load is an obvious solution to stagnation.

    People are always asking &quot;how many sets?&quot; or &quot;how many reps?&quot; for the fastest gains. The answer is, &quot;it depends&quot;. This is not the answer most people want to hear. They want a hard and fast rule that takes out all the thinking and personal management of their own progress. They say, &quot;Give me your rules and I'll try them. If it doesn't work then your method is no good.&quot; This is a faulty approach to reaching ones goals when it comes to learning how to train for size. Without an understanding of how their body works, they will never be abel to effectively manage their own training for the most efficient increases in size.

    Gauging load and volume is like hitting a moving target. Your body is constantly changing its level of adaptation or conditioning. That is why having a method that allows you to predict what you will need to do each workout over an extended period of time based on our understanding of how the body will adapt to each workout [run on sentence, sorry] is the best method for consistant gains. This assumes the method is based on a sound understanding of physiology.

    *If you don’t have enough weight, increasing the volume does not increase hypertrophy, it only increases endurance.

    Again, as the weight gets heavier, the ability to achieve sufficient time under tension diminishes. It’s simply too heavy to support long enough.

    On the other hand, increasing volume will quickly diminish the amount of weight you can use. Not only that, but as you increase volume or begin to train to failure, you also increase the amount of time it takes the CNS to recover (see Int J Sports Med. 2003 Aug;24(6):410-8). But don't forget that the CNS does adapt to different levels of volume. This is what traditional “Periodization” is all about. (NOTE: HST does not use “periodization”. HST uses simple “progression”) So even if a high volume workout kicks your butt in the beginning, that doesn't mean that 3 weeks later it still will. Your tolerance for long workouts will increase if you do it reasonably.

    There is also injury potential. As the weight gets heavier and heavier, the potential for injury goes up. This is simply because you will begin to approach the physical/mechanical limits of the tissue (see below for further comments on this). This is the reason that most BIG guys using HST methods and AAS don't go any lower than 8-10 reps during their cycles, and they don’t train to failure.

    Now that I've rambled on and on, let me finish by saying this. Start out deconditioned. This ensures that your options for increasing the stimulus are wide open as you progress along. Research has led many of us to believe that a single set is sufficient for a deconditioned individual to grow just as much as with 2 sets. This is because the one set initiated the signal to the point of diminishing returns with more than 1 set.

    If you do not start out deconditioned, in my experience 1 set isn't usually sufficient UNLESS you train a body part every day. So over the course of 6 days, you do 6 sets. If you can’t hit it every day, you will most likely need 2 sets per workout every other day.

    Beware however of training everyday with heavy loads. What happens is there are neural changes that happen immediately after a workout (see Eur J Appl Physiol. 2003 Apr;89(2):115-21). This is part of the RBE. What this does is prevents as much neural activation during the following bout, thereby reducing the potential for injury. However, what it also does is places more load on the mechanical (i.e. passive) structures of the tissue rather than the contractile structures. In essence it greatly reduces the elastic activity during loading and places more load on fewer fibers and more load on the tendons and other connective tissue. This is how injury happens with frequent heavy loads. Unfortunately, it can also lead to significant gains.

    When you get into the 10s I have almost always seen 2 “work sets” following a sufficient warmup, to be sufficient. Remember that during the 15s, 2 sets of 15 is 30 reps and it is usually strength-endurance that gives out. During the 10s the weight has increased sufficiently that although you might get another set, 2 sets will have worked the muscle just enough to grow.

    During the 5s experienced lifters will then need to reduce the number of exercise and increase the number of sets to 3 (or 4). Yes, the loads used during the 5s should normally be heavy enough to stimulate growth, even with 1 or 2 sets. However, we have just progressed over the last 6-8 weeks up to this point. Our level of resistance to the load has increased to the point where two sets (10 reps) isn’t sufficient.

    Bear in mind that the manner in which you perform each rep will have an impact on the effectiveness of the set. Emphasize the negative and use speed (NOT momentum) for the concentric portion.</div>
     
  11. faz

    faz Active Member

    <div>
    (Totentanz @ Sep. 04 2007,00:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
    (Avi1985 @ Sep. 01 2007,18:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If sd has no influnce but helping you to recover, its better for me to do 10 days sd than 14 days sd. Am i right?
    Another question. Lets say my muscles grow with 20 rep range, So it better for me to do 20 reps than 30 reps. Because if i start right away on 30 reps, my muscles would get use to that rep range faster. So starting from 20 reps and gradouly getting to 30 reps range after a few cycles is the best thing for me to do. right?</div>
    Are you talking about total reps?  Because if so, I would just do 20 total reps throughout the cycle.  But if you must do more reps, then start with 30 and taper down to 20 as the weights get heavier.  So 2x15 during the 15s, maybe 3x10 for the first week of 10s, then 2x10 the second week, then 4x5 during the 5s.
    I don't know anyone who has completed a cycle doing 6 sets of 5 reps during the 5s.  Seems like that never works, unless you aren't doing deadlifts or squats.  Even then, 6x5 top sets sounds pretty hard.</div>
    i tried it tot, it was to much [​IMG]
    and TBH i didnt make ant more gains than i did doing 3x5 [​IMG]
     
  12. Avi1985

    Avi1985 New Member

    Thnx tot. You relaxed me.
    Now im on cut so i do 1*15 2*10 3*5 for each muscle group. On bulk i would do 20 reps ( on 15's i do 1 set, rest a20-30 seconds on more 5 reps, 2*10, 4*5). When it will stop to affect me i do 2*15 3*10 4*5 for each muscle group. But in more several cycles it would stop affect me either. So then ill have to go up in the rep numbers on all the rape ranges. Am i right?
     
  13. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    <div>
    (Avi1985 @ Sep. 04 2007,18:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Thnx tot. You relaxed me.
    Now im on cut so i do 1*15 2*10 3*5 for each muscle group. On bulk i would do 20 reps ( on 15's i do 1 set, rest a20-30 seconds on more 5 reps, 2*10, 4*5). When it will stop to affect me i do 2*15 3*10 4*5 for each muscle group. But in more several cycles it would stop affect me either. So then ill have to go up in the rep numbers on all the rape ranges. Am i right?</div>
    If you are lifting heavier each cycle then you should not need to increase sets/reps from one cycle to the next. And... really, every cycle should have heavier RMs than your previous cycles, unless you are on a serious cut or something.

    Remember, the principle is &quot;Progressive Load.&quot; Don't worry about volume so much. I would bet that doing 20 total reps for each exercise would be sufficient for several cycles, as long as you are progressing your loads. - Refer to the large snippet from Bryan that Lol posted.
     
  14. Avi1985

    Avi1985 New Member

    So if i understand you right. You say that i can do 20 reps. And do how many cycles i want with the same reps number, without stop from gaining muscle (untill i get to the top of Lbm i can get offcourse) as long as my rms going up. Right?
     
  15. RUSS

    RUSS Member

    <div>
    (Avi1985 @ Sep. 05 2007,18:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So if i understand you right. You say that i can do 20 reps. And do how many cycles i want with the same reps number, without stop from gaining muscle (untill i get to the top of Lbm i can get offcourse) as long as my rms going up. Right?</div>
    You should be good for around two years (roughly) before you MAY (you MAY still be fine) have a legitimate reason to look at volume manipulation (IMHO). [​IMG]
     
  16. faz

    faz Active Member

    here is a point if we are talking about creating a stimulus in the right now,would that mean isos would be better than compounds,ie biceps dont get direct work from pull-ups but they do from curls so wouldnt curls create a better stimulus for the bicep muscle.
    lat-raises delts,flyes pecs,etc.
     
  17. Joe.Muscle

    Joe.Muscle Active Member

    Good point faz...I think the only argument to that point is the ability to add weight to the bar over time.

    I am not super strong or weak.

    But 25 pound side lateral raises are about as good as it gets for me with proper form.

    So the problem i would see would be increasing my side raises with sufficient load increases over time.

    As with compounds it tends to be easier to increase the weight.

    However a different view on this could be:

    Compounds are multi joint (ie) bench press = chest,front delts, triceps...so we are spreading the load over 3 muscles which IMO could mean why its easier to increase weight.

    However Pec dec or flys is just the pecs muscle and not other secondary muscles for the most part.

    So all the strain is on just 1 muscle instead of 3 so maybe load doesn't have to increase as much...???...hmmm

    Are we on to something here?[​IMG]? [​IMG]
     
  18. Avi1985

    Avi1985 New Member

    <div>
    (faz @ Sep. 06 2007,11:03)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">here is a point if we are talking about creating a stimulus in the right now,would that mean isos would be better than compounds,ie biceps dont get direct work from pull-ups but they do from curls so wouldnt curls create a better stimulus for the bicep muscle.
    lat-raises delts,flyes pecs,etc.</div>
    Imo, on 15's and 10's the answear is yes, without any doubt. But on 5's it might be too much for my arms.
     
  19. faz

    faz Active Member

    <div>
    (Joe.Muscle @ Sep. 06 2007,16:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Good point faz...I think the only argument to that point is the ability to add weight to the bar over time.

    I am not super strong or weak.

    But 25 pound side lateral raises are about as good as it gets for me with proper form.

    So the problem i would see would be increasing my side raises with sufficient load increases over time.

    As with compounds it tends to be easier to increase the weight.

    However a different view on this could be:

    Compounds are multi joint (ie) bench press = chest,front delts, triceps...so we are spreading the load over 3 muscles which IMO could mean why its easier to increase weight.

    However Pec dec or flys is just the pecs muscle and not other secondary muscles for the most part.

    So all the strain is on just 1 muscle instead of 3 so maybe load doesn't have to increase as much...???...hmmm

    Are we on to something here?[​IMG]? [​IMG]</div>
    as you say
    &quot;Compounds are multi joint (ie) bench press = chest,front delts, triceps...so we are spreading the load over 3 muscles which IMO could mean why its easier to increase weight.&quot;

    so is the target muscle getting enough stimulus in the right now with compounds [​IMG]
     
  20. RUSS

    RUSS Member

    <div>
    (faz @ Sep. 06 2007,12:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">so is the target muscle getting enough stimulus in the right now with compounds [​IMG]</div>
    I think with intelligent volume choices and carefully orchestrated compounds it is. [​IMG]
     

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