Deadlift frequency and Squat question

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(_Simon_ @ Jun. 25 2008,8:52)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">any thoughts on the Squat being able to cause 'whole' body growth? i still don't think it's possible.</div>
Well, squats certainly work out your legs, so you are still holding the verdict for the rest of the body, right? Legs - check.

I don't know about you, but I finally got my form down right with squats (correct angle of back during bottom of lift, and I feel my abs tighten up like never before. Likewise, my lower back is in a stretched position as I angle my back. Core - check.

Holding the bar in some manner requires use of the arms and shoulders. I agree, you aren't using your arms as much as the deadlift, any arm isolation, dips or bench press, but, you are nevertheless using them. Forearms and the traps are, perhaps, used the most when holding the bar in a Hack Squat position. When in a front squat, the biceps and triceps really get hit holding the bar like that. In the natural back squat position, stability is needed around your traps and your arms are in a stretched position holding the bar on your back. Likewise, when you lower your body, your chest will contract while your back stretches, especially with the natural Back Squat. Upper body? - Check
 
Well, Simon, if you are talking about the supposed myth that doing squats raises systemic test levels, akin to taking steroids, then yeah... that's bunk. I remember people talking about doing squats &quot;for breakfast&quot; to get their test up for the day and other dumb things like that.

Basically, you aren't going to get 18 inch arms from doing squats. People will also try to tell you that you cannot build a big upper body without doing squats, but obviously you can. I think we've all see the guys with huge upper bodies and chicken legs underneath. I actually know one. All other factors assumed: If you train a muscle, it will grow. If you don't, it won't.
 
Looks like Colby &amp; Tot hit the post button before I did!

Doing squats, especially low bar, uses just about every muscle you have.

The legs are a given, but you have to keep you core flexed the entire movement and it works to keep the load stable.

In low bar squats you will be working the upper back in an attempt to have a solid base to hold the bar, your arms are worked by holding the bar.

So yes full body growth is a reality. Can you just do squats all the time and end up like Arnold? No because the other muscles are secondary and are still going to require further stimulation.

It is claimed that the squat utilizes 200 different muscles, many of which are stabilizers you will never see.

There is also the argument about the increase in test and GH do to the amount of trauma to the different muscles but that is a whole different can of worms...
 
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(dawaro @ Jun. 25 2008,11:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">your arms are worked by holding the bar.</div>
I am not sure about low/high bar squat. But according to Rip the hands are not used to LIFT the bar. They PRESS the bar against the back, for stabilization. I do Squats like that. My arms do not feel any stress at all.
 
squats for upper body, NO i'm sorry haha. It's like saying because i clench my jaw and neck while doing my squats, my jaw and neck muscles will grow. like popeye. your arms are honestly not working enough to cause microtrauma or any sort of strain. just because a muscle tenses slightly to support/stabilise something, doesn't mean it is enough to grow.

i guess where i'm coming from here is not in regards to specificity of muscle tension (upper body growing from squats by the muscles BEING used during the exercise), but more so on a hormonal level. because i honestly don't believe that if you did squats, your upper body would grow as well. deads are a different story in my opinion. but i just keep seeing the &quot;If you don't squat, you don't grow&quot; mentality being flung over lots of prints, and i'm just thinking, what are they basing that on?
 
Simon, we never said squats alone will make your upper body grow. However, lifts such as the Deadlift and Squat train the entire body with concentration on the lower half.
 
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(_Simon_ @ Jun. 26 2008,11:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">squats for upper body, NO i'm sorry haha. It's like saying because i clench my jaw and neck while doing my squats, my jaw and neck muscles will grow. like popeye. your arms are honestly not working enough to cause microtrauma or any sort of strain. just because a muscle tenses slightly to support/stabilise something, doesn't mean it is enough to grow.

i guess where i'm coming from here is not in regards to specificity of muscle tension (upper body growing from squats by the muscles BEING used during the exercise), but more so on a hormonal level. because i honestly don't believe that if you did squats, your upper body would grow as well. deads are a different story in my opinion. but i just keep seeing the &quot;If you don't squat, you don't grow&quot; mentality being flung over lots of prints, and i'm just thinking, what are they basing that on?</div>
They are basing it on nothing. Plenty of people have grown without squats or deads.

I think all those arguments came about because people weren't doing these lifts and everyone realized that they are valuable lifts to incorporate into your routines. Like everything, it eventually gets taken to an extreme and results in retarded stuff like &quot;you won't grow at all unless you squat&quot; and similar garbage.

Yes, they are valuable lifts but there isn't anything magical about them. They do not raise testosterone levels systemically. They are not going to give you steroid like muscle growth.

And trust me, I really, really love deadlifts (squats... not as much) and I would really love it if all these assertions about them raising hormone levels were true. But... they aren't.
 
Due to the amount of stabilizer muscles used in both the squat and the deadlift there is a huge overall muscle gain by doing these exercises. So to gain LBM weight these are fantastic. And no, you'll not grow your pecs or get huge arms from squats.
 
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(bobpit @ Jun. 26 2008,1:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I am not sure about low/high bar squat.  But according to Rip the hands are not used to LIFT the bar.  They PRESS the bar against the back, for stabilization.  I do Squats like that.  My arms do not feel any stress at all.</div>
That is the same way I do it. I squeeze the bar as hard as I can and push it into my back. While it does not feel like I have just finished a set of curls I can feel that the muscle has been used.
 
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(_Simon_ @ Jun. 26 2008,10:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">squats for upper body, NO i'm sorry haha. It's like saying because i clench my jaw and neck while doing my squats, my jaw and neck muscles will grow. like popeye. your arms are honestly not working enough to cause microtrauma or any sort of strain. just because a muscle tenses slightly to support/stabilise something, doesn't mean it is enough to grow.

i guess where i'm coming from here is not in regards to specificity of muscle tension (upper body growing from squats by the muscles BEING used during the exercise), but more so on a hormonal level. because i honestly don't believe that if you did squats, your upper body would grow as well. deads are a different story in my opinion. but i just keep seeing the &quot;If you don't squat, you don't grow&quot; mentality being flung over lots of prints, and i'm just thinking, what are they basing that on?</div>
It isnt simply a matter of growth. Using muscles conditions them and strengthens them. Your other lifts where you are trying to grow benefit from this. Just like push/pull excersises benifit from each other. Strength gains in one often lead to gains in the other.

If the whole question is just on that rule try a routine both ways and see if there is a difference to you.

I would imagine the saying is just as much of a result the mental toughness heavy squats require and it being seen as dedication. Just a theory.

There are several people at my gym that have good size and never do any leg work outside of curls and extensions.
 
Genetics. But as you said before, there are many synergistic muscles that grow and enhance the core. I personally believe it helps other lifts and allows bigger lifts all around, since the core is more stable.
Imagine if you will, two twins on identical protocols except for the squats. Neither one has done overhead presses before. After some time, one twin using leg machines and the other squats, they attempt the overhead presses or some other new exersize to them that requires core strength. Which one do you think is gonna outlift the other?
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Simon, we never said squats alone will make your upper body grow. However, lifts such as the Deadlift and Squat train the entire body with concentration on the lower half. </div>

good point colby, i'm not saying you guys said that squats make your entire body grow, i just read it elsewhere mainly from strength coaches it seems...

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Like everything, it eventually gets taken to an extreme and results in retarded stuff like &quot;you won't grow at all unless you squat&quot; and similar garbage.</div>

hahaha so so very unfortunately true totz, there is so much crap out in the fitness industry, it probably has more than any other... prove me wrong?
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and good point everyone about core strength and how it can possibly play a role in other lifts and further hypertrophy.

cheers guys, very helpful and real!
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(colby2152 @ Jun. 23 2008,8:37)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Here is what I am doing this HST cycle. I have added legs back into the HST mix, and starting off with light weights, I am doing both Deadlifts and Squats each WO, for a total of 3x/week each. I plan on doing this through the 10's and then alternating when I hit the 5's. I may lower the frequency to once/week when I hit the 3's. The point is, that when loads are light (all relative here), then one doesn't have to worry about frequency as much. However, when the loads get high, then recovery must be taken into consideration!</div>
Yeah, I kept promising myself the same thing. However, when I was doing both squats and deads 3x/week each, I never did get around to alternating. To be fair, I was just starting out and wasn't using very heavy weights yet.
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(Totentanz @ Jun. 26 2008,1:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">And trust me, I really, really love deadlifts (squats... not as much) and I would really love it if all these assertions about them raising hormone levels were true. But... they aren't.</div>
What is it about deads that is so attractive...? If I were only able to do one exercise, it would be the deadlift.
 
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(nipponbiki @ Jun. 22 2008,12:49)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Tot and Russ,

Oh really? I didn't even consider that because of the intensity and volume. Russ, now I am intrigued. Please tell us more about your dead routine, how it effects the rest of your program, and how you deal with recovery. Looking forward to your reply.

Tot, do you or have you done similar? If so, I would like to hear about your experience as well.</div>
Well I've been doing what I've printed above since last winter and it's working exceptionally well for me. I decrease the number of triples from 10 to 8 to 6 to 3 as the cycles progress and my recovery dictates , when I find the last triple of a 3x3 getting stuck I switch to singles (5x1) until I feel an SD is in order. Also I switch at the end from M,tu, weds, fri to an everyother day frequency and this augments recovery .

If you've got the connective tissue strength for it triples can build great size and strength - and as for deadlifts I wouldnt do a 10x3 as part of a total body workout that would be too much - the way I've designed my program allows focus on one &quot;big&quot; compound lift each workout as a 10x3 with the other lift being a lighter 2x12 as an auxillary lift - bench , row, press, and deads are spread over the week in such a way that enables high %age loads and the recovery they demand.

Another approach that I've used in the past and seen others also get great gains on is a two set once a week , basically-
1x3 - for neural strength
1x8- for hypertrophy

I dont remember the percentages of each set but you could easily figure out good starting loads for yourself. This way was easier to tie into fullbodyworkouts .


For deads you could start at 80% 1RM and do a 6x3 the first week an 8x3 the next and a 10x3 the third week all at a constant load then begin load progression on week 4 - by then you'd probably have a pretty good idea of wether higher volume triples are your cup of tea or not. Hope this helps.
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