Diet going nowhere

[LittleBigHorn]

Hey guys,

my diet, combined with my HST regimen, seems to be going nowhere for some reason. I started out at roughly 16% BF about 2 months ago, and I'm now down to 14% with a final goal of 12%. At first it seemed like I was shredding my BF at an even, moderate pace, but now I've totally hit a plateu. I can see that some obvious fat loss has occurred in my upper body, but I still have that stubborn ab fat that refuses to budge. Moreover, I'm starting to feel fatigued and I'm getting these weird mood swings (going from feeling postal to total apathy). Something seems to be wrong here.

I have done HIIT cardio first thing in the morning on an empty stomach powered by taurine and some green tea. On my off days that is, for three days a week. My macros are roughly 35/40/25 (protein, carbs and fats), and my last meal of the day is a zero carb meal. All of my fats come from cold pressed rape seed oil (yes, it is really spelled that way&#33, which is equivalent to or better than fish oil in it's omega acid profile. Oh yeah, and I eat 5 meals a day at even intervals.

I still get good workouts with my hst routine in spite of the diet, but I'm feeling like it takes longer and longer to recover from them. I guess I'm starting to feel burned out in a way, which is rather surprising since I haven't lowered my calories below 2400 on any day.

Anyone have advice on what to do to kickstart my shredding progress? As a side note, I do have my once a week shock days to keep my metabolism from slowing down. Also, what should I do since I'm at the end of my hst cycle even though I still have at least a month of dieting left to get to my goal? I'm doing my 6 rep block again, but I obviously can't do another month of heavy weight training without some downtime to keep my CNS fatigue in check. Then again, if I do an SD, I'll either lose a lot of muscle or gain a lot of fat back, depending on whether or not I stay low cal or elevate the caloric intake for the duration of the SD.
Anyone think this might be hormone related? Could it be possible that the diet has somehow screwed up my hormone levels?

 

[BoSox]

well it seems you haven't reached a hypocaloric state. Maybe your diet WAS hypocaloric, but you lost weight so not anymore. Dipping the calories lower would seem to be the natural solution but that could make you feel even more burnt out. It might be time for an SD to rejuvenate and figure out something else for the next cycle.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Since you are in your heavy work try cutting the carbs back, you shouldn't need that much glucose during the low rep heavy work, also try upping the calories a bit for more than one day, one day does little to reset the metabolism. Another option is to start consistent cardio, lower intensity 30 mins per day, while upping the cals, then after a week or two start dropping the cals again while continuing the cardio, just don't go nuts during the increase, try and stay just a cuple hundred above maintenance for the 2 weeks before the cutting starts then drop them back gradually.

Good Luck

 

[Pauly]

Quote[/b] (LittleBigHorn @ Dec. 01 2004,9:46)]

Quote[/b] ]At first it seemed like I was shredding my BF at an even, moderate pace, but now I've totally hit a plateu...Something seems to be wrong here.

The clue, as they say, is in the question. Theres some basic things you can do to get things moving again. If you dont mind Ill give you a quick run through of the points you raise in your post and how I see it...

Quote[/b] ]My macros are roughly 35/40/25 (protein, carbs and fats), and my last meal of the day is a zero carb meal. All of my fats come from cold pressed rape seed oil (yes, it is really spelled that way&#33, which is equivalent to or better than fish oil in it's omega acid profile. Oh yeah, and I eat 5 meals a day at even intervals.

Fat loss has nothing really to do with how many times a day you eat, unless youre doing something retarded like eating once/day (well, very little at best - not really a concern unless youre getting ready for a show).

Quote[/b] ]Anyone think this might be hormone related? Could it be possible that the diet has somehow screwed up my hormone levels?

No. Its way simpler than that. IMO youre making the same mistake most people make when they self analyse, miss the obvious and think that something bad must be wrong with them.

Quote[/b] ]...which is rather surprising since I haven't lowered my calories below 2400 on any day...As a side note, I do have my once a week shock days to keep my metabolism from slowing down.

Bingo! Heres the root of your problem. 2400 cals is too much for any decent kind of calorie deficit, unless youre way hyooge or you live on the treadmill!

And at 14% bf theres no need whatsoever for a weekly refeed (or 'shock day' as you call it). Its probable that youre losing some fat through the week (although not much IMO) and then putting it back on on your cheat day.

Quote[/b] ]Anyone have advice on what to do to kickstart my shredding progress?

You dont say how much you weigh, but work out how many calories per pound of bodyweight youre getting at 2400cals/day. I need to get my average intake well below 10cals/lb to get things moving. I doubt youre dieting that hard at 2400 cals.

Quote[/b] ]Also, what should I do since I'm at the end of my hst cycle even though I still have at least a month of dieting left to get to my goal? I'm doing my 6 rep block again, but I obviously can't do another month of heavy weight training without some downtime to keep my CNS fatigue in check. Then again, if I do an SD, I'll either lose a lot of muscle or gain a lot of fat back, depending on whether or not I stay low cal or elevate the caloric intake for the duration of the SD.

Ive recently faced a similar situation. I came up short on my diet results at the end of a cutting cycle (Ive just spent 16 weeks 'cutting' and ended up fatter than I was in the first place

), so I had the dilemma of starting my planned bulk at a higher bf%, and probably end up fatter than I would be happy with during the course of it, or bite the bullet and throw in another cutter first (Ill get round to bulking again one day! ). I went with the cutting option (never want to be fat again), bit I looked back over my logs and worked out what worked for me and what I did wrong and have now gone back to what I know works for me (if it aint broke dont try and fix it! ). I recommend you finish this cycle off, plan out your next diet phase properly and have another crack at dieting. An 8 week HST cuttig cycle should get you from 14% to 8-9% no probs, if you get the diet worked out right (PM me if youre having probs with the diet and Ill give you my XL 'diet constructor' spreadsheets)

Quote[/b] ]
I have done HIIT cardio first thing in the morning on an empty stomach powered by taurine and some green tea. On my off days that is, for three days a week.

Id suggest this is where your fatigue and recovery issues come from. You dont say how long or how intense your HIIT sessions are, or how conditioned to it you are, but its easy as hell to overdo HIIT. With three weekly leg workouts too your legs are getting worked six times/week - be careful you arent overdoing it. Id even suggest switching one or two of your HIIT sesiions to steady state, like fast walking. And I dont care what everyone else says on here (Im expecting several ppl to jump in here saying 'HIIT is better for fat loss&#39, plenty of people have got plenty ripped doing steady state cardio. I dont know of one top level BBer that uses HIIT and theyre pretty lean are they not!? Im not saying HIIT doesnt work, but for the average guy its just too easy to overdo it. Anyway, Im getting off topic...

Best of luck with your plan. As a former fat kid myself, I know how rewarding it can be finally getting in good shape and receiving compliments on the way you look. It makes the effort of dieting worth all the hassle!

 

[Pauly]

Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ Dec. 02 2004,4:20)]...also try upping the calories a bit for more than one day, one day does little to reset the metabolism...

At 14% his metabolism doesnt need resetting every week. Doubtful it needs resetting at all with a 2400 calorie intake!

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (Pauly @ Dec. 02 2004,4:16)]

Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ Dec. 02 2004,4:20)]...also try upping the calories a bit for more than one day, one day does little to reset the metabolism...

As a former fat kid myself, I know how rewarding it can be finally getting in good shape and receiving compliments on the way you look. It makes the effort of dieting worth all the hassle!

At 14% his metabolism doesnt need resetting every week. Doubtful it needs resetting at all with a 2400 calorie intake!

As a former Fat Adult (see the before and after pics here when I was 75lbs heavier) I know how difficult it can be also and at any age any positive significant change in your body is noticable and when noticed it is rewarding.

Pauly is more than likely right about not needing refeeds

, but if you are intent on doing them, one day is doing little good.

 

[LittleBigHorn]

Alright, thanks for the input guys!
Don't get me wrong though- I HAVE lost some fat, and the good thing is I haven't lost any muscle (so far at least). I'm just worried that the inevitable SD I'm facing will put me back to square one, or even worse.

I doubt it's the HIIT cardio that's causing me to feel burned out as it is, since I only do around 10 minutes of it. Before you go and rip my head off for 'only' doing 10 minutes of cardio, bear in mind that the maximum suggested time you should HIIT is 15 minutes. Those 10 minutes are more than worth 30 minutes of low intensity cardio, especially when done first thing in the morning.

I just can't comprehend how it would even be possible to do a succesful HST cycle with a huge calorie defict (my upkeep range is roughly 2700-2800) combined with cardio and NOT go into an overtrained state. Sometimes I feel like it's next to impossible to do a succesful dieting cycle without losing tons of muscle in the progress if you are a natural BBer.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

dkm, do you have any studies to back the claims? It's hard to see how such a generalization can be made. I would think people could reset their metabolism with a day of refeeding. I've seen Mr. X and SC advocate it, and supposedly they're trustworthy guys. Of course, I'm not going to believe just anything I hear/read, so I wanted to see what some research says.

Even then, science isn't supreme. It's always possible that it's faulty, especially when it comes to the human body. I'm sure a day of refeeding is better than nothing, albeit not optimal.

 

[Pauly]

Quote[/b] (LittleBigHorn @ Dec. 03 2004,11:03)]

Quote[/b] ]I doubt it's the HIIT cardio that's causing me to feel burned out as it is, since I only do around 10 minutes of it.

Sorry to disagree with you here, but IMO the HIIT is the root of your fatigue problem. If youve stopped losing weight then low calories obviously isnt your problem (since you dont even have a deficit! )

And you say 'only' 10 minutes of HIIT, but thats half an hour a week of intense exercise on your legs, on top of your three weekly HST leg workouts. If youre not very well conditioned to the demands of this type of cardio then this can easily be too much on your legs, leading to overall systemic fatigue. BTW what does the leg portion of your HST setup look like?

Quote[/b] ]Those 10 minutes are more than worth 30 minutes of low intensity cardio, especially when done first thing in the morning.

The 'cardio on an empty stomach in the morning' thing is irrelevant unless youre extremely lean already (which at 14% youre not). Try my suggestion of switching two of the HIIT sessions for 30-45 minute 'steady state' sessions (I do fast walking). When youve done this for a few weeks you can make a direct comparison and can then comment more objectively.

Quote[/b] ]I just can't comprehend how it would even be possible to do a succesful HST cycle with a huge calorie defict...combined with cardio and NOT go into an overtrained state.

Not having a go at you, but your comprehension of has nothing to do with the physiological reality of the situation.

For example, my current maintenance is ~2900 yet my average daily intake is 1900 (with 3-4 45min cardio sessions a week). And Ive done this exact cycle before with no muscle loss.

Quote[/b] ]Sometimes I feel like it's next to impossible to do a succesful dieting cycle without losing tons of muscle in the progress if you are a natural BBer.

Sorry to let you down again, but theres plenty of people walking round out there (myself included) which would indicate otherwise!

Im not having a pop at you, but the feeling I get from your posts is that youre looking for any excuse for why things arent working, rather than being brutally honest with yourself. If things arent working then they need changing. Nothing to do with hormones or overtraining or losing muscle .

There are a few simple things youre getting wrong which literally jump off the page and scream at me, but which youre obviously missing. As I see it, heres what you need to do...

1. Eat less!
If youre not losing weight anymore then youre eating too many calories. Simple as that!

Work out your cals/lb of bodyweight at 2400 cals (you havent said how heavy you are). Adjust your calorie intake down until youre getting at most 10-12 cals/lb.

2. Drop the 'shock day'
At 14% and with such a small deficit (if youre even in a deficit*) youre most likely undoing the entire previous weeks fat loss on that one day. (Easily done! Trust me - Ive been there).

Side note - The reasons for 'refeeding' are threefold:

i)To replenish depleted glycogen stores, therefore allowing further intense weight training sessions.

ii)To satisfy the psychological effects brought about by restriction, allowing you to relax and get some of the things youve been craving without ballsing everything it all up

iii)To keep your metabolic rate ticking over so you maintain the deficit youre running (leptin blah blah blah). This takes more than a day to do properly however.

With your small deficit youre not getting glycogen depleted so theres no need to replenish glycogen or anything like that (i). If youre eating as many as 2400 cals then its entirely possible to reach satiety and therefore not have (m)any psychological 'restriction' issues ii). (Try eating 1000cals (solely protein) for 12 days straight then youll understand what a craving is! ) And finally, at 14% your metabolism hasnt started to slow down yet (not to any great extent anyway, unless you were one severely FAT child) so the leptin thing isnt an issue (iii).

3. Reduce the HIIT
I dont care what you say, if youre fatigued then youre overdoing something. HIIT is easy as hell to overdo. Plenty of people have got plenty lean with SS cardio, so swap some of your HIIT for SS.

Anyway, that should give you a few things to be getting on with. Honestly, it really is as simple as eating less, exercising(without overtraining) and sticking to it for a given length of time.

* How accurately are you tracking your calories? Maybe your intake is a bit higher than you reckon? Its easily done if youre just guesstimating and not counting properly - you think youre only eating XX calories when in reality youre getting XX+300, which can have a big influence on your progress (300 cals when guesstimating is nothing )

 

[Pauly]

Quote[/b] (Tom Treutlein @ Dec. 03 2004,12:18)]dkm, do you have any studies to back the claims? It's hard to see how such a generalization can be made. I would think people could reset their metabolism with a day of refeeding. I've seen Mr. X and SC advocate it, and supposedly they're trustworthy guys. Of course, I'm not going to believe just anything I hear/read, so I wanted to see what some research says.
Even then, science isn't supreme. It's always possible that it's faulty, especially when it comes to the human body. I'm sure a day of refeeding is better than nothing, albeit not optimal.

Read the comments I made about 'dropping the shock day' in my post above.

There are several reasons for refeeding. Resetting metabolism is just one of them.

A one day refeed (or cheat day, pig-out day, shock day or whatever you call it) can have several benefits, but these depend on the lifter meeting certain conditions. No point in doing it for the sake of it!

 

[LittleBigHorn]

Pauly, take it easy man. I'm not trying to make excuses for myself. I just feel burned out and I've lost my 'focus' of everything because of BEING burned out. It's like my mind is in a fog, and it's obviously thanks to this diet. I did a similar cycle last spring with similar calories, cardio and better results, though. Just as a side note. And I only brought up the question about my hormone levels since I've been experiencing bizarre mood swings, as I mentioned in my first post. That is another obvious result of this diet, since I've never experienced such fluctuations before.

You make some good points, and I will probably have to cut the calories even lower in my next cycle. However, I don't know about you (maybe you have freakish genes), but every other BBer I've talked to who has been on a severely restricted diet HAS experienced noticeable muscle loss with the calorie ranges you are suggesting (below 2000) on prolonged diets. I don't mean to criticize your knowledge on these matters, as I'm sure you know a lot more about the physiology behind the whole process than I do, but going that low sounds a little risky. I just don't have enough muscle to spare (yet) that I would be willing to risk losing any of it.

Another thing: I may have overestimated my BF%. I think it was more around 15% before I began this diet, and now it's down to 13%.
Some background info on me: I weigh around 180 lbs. I was never a fat kid, and my metabolism and genes are pretty much average. Regarding my calories, I count them down every day, every single meal. I even do this while bulking up to avoid overeating.

Concerning the 'pig out day'; I didn't do these at the beginning of my "diet". I only incorporated them into my schedule AFTER I started to notice some obvious signs of metabolic deceleration. Decreased body warmth, decreased appetite etc.

I forgot to mention that I've been doing powerwalking whenever the weather allows it in place of my normal HIIT routine on occasion. One question though: what do you mean by saying that doing cardio in the morning is irrelevant? Wouldn't you mainly be burning your glycogen if you do it any time later in the day (unless you do insanely long sessions) instead of burning off the fat? How does that scenario change when you get to lower bodyfat levels?

One more Q: since I'm at the 'end of my rope', so to speak, what would you recommend from here on? I don't think doing an SD would be a good idea just yet, but then again, what do I know? Do enlighten me.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (Tom Treutlein @ Dec. 03 2004,6:18)]dkm, do you have any studies to back the claims? It's hard to see how such a generalization can be made. I would think people could reset their metabolism with a day of refeeding. I've seen Mr. X and SC advocate it, and supposedly they're trustworthy guys. Of course, I'm not going to believe just anything I hear/read, so I wanted to see what some research says.
Even then, science isn't supreme. It's always possible that it's faulty, especially when it comes to the human body. I'm sure a day of refeeding is better than nothing, albeit not optimal.

Read

Adaptive reduction in basal metabolic rate in response to food deprivation in humans: a role for feedback signals from fat stores.
Dulloo AG, Jacquet J.Am J Clin Nutr. 1998 Sep;68(3):599-606

Autoregulation of body composition during weight recovery in human: the Minnesota Experiment revisited.
Dulloo AG, Jacquet J, Girardier L.Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1996 May;20(5):393-405.

An adipose-specific control of thermogenesis in body weight regulation.Dulloo AG, Jacquet J.Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2001 Dec;25 Suppl 5:S22-9.

Leptin signaling, adiposity, and energy balance.
Jequier E.Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2002 Jun;967:379-88.

Basal metabolic rate, fat-free mass, and body cell mass during energy restriction.Luke A, Schoeller DA.Metabolism. 1992 Apr;41(4):450-6


Bottom Line is simple the leaner you get the harder it is to continually loss fat. Adipose studies as above have demonstrated this and an observed correlation to a reduction in BMR as one gets leaner under a caloric deficit.

Now a question, is a one day re-feed going to have a dramatic enough response on your adiposity to cause an increase in BMR, Leptin or anything else that would turnaround the declining BMR? My answer; not that I have seen.

I think Pauly has already answered this, yes there are advantages to a day long re-feed once per week, but IMHO it is only psychological not physiological.

Perhaps someone can show me something to change my mind.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Oh yeah I forgot another Reference, the GOD of CKD
Lyle McDonald
From his Book "UD2"

Quote[/b] ]One of the factors I've been considering lately has to do with the duration of the overfeeding
period. While it's true that 5 (or 12 or 24) hours of concentrated overfeeding will raise leptin, the
more important question is whether that's sufficient to "tell" the brain that you're fed. While data
(especially in humans) is nonexistent, my hunch is that it is not.
My basic reasoning is this: there's a lag time of several days between the drop in leptin and the drop in metabolic rate (nervous system output) for example; I'd be surprised if a mere 12 or 24 hours was sufficient to reverse this. Rather, I'd expect it to take a similar amount of time for
the reversal to occur. The more extended logic of my reasoning is beyond what I want to put in this book, email me if you must know.
Now, this isn't to say that short carb-loads/refeeds aren't of benefit. They refill glycogen, turn off catabolism briefly and maybe induce an anabolic response to boot. They also let you eat some of the crap you're really craving which helps psychologically. But I doubt they are sufficient to affect metabolism very much. Instead, a longer refeed is most likely necessary. The drawback, of course, is that longer refeeds have a tendency to put too much bodyfat back on
which goes against the entire goal of dieting.

 

[LittleBigHorn]

Hmmm... so everything I've been taught about the importance of those weekly refeed days is basically poppycock . Now I don't know who to believe anymore.

From what I've gathered, the best way to go about losing fat in the long term while avoiding muscle loss and metabolic deceleration would be to do a cycled diet. I.e. two weeks of upkeep (maybe?)calories followed by two weeks of lower calories with more intense cardio etc.
Do you think this might be a concept that could be worked into a HST cycle succesfully?

Also, I'm still open to more suggestions/input on what I should do next with my situation. I've gotten some sound advice already, but the path ahead remains obscure. There are plenty of options to choose from, it seems, and I want to make the right choice to suit my current predicament.

 

[Lance]

I have to disagree with Pauly about the calories being not low enough.

Not to say that they aren't low enough, i can't determine that for him.

Personally, i weigh ~ 200lbs, quite lean. I can gain or lose weight quite easily depending on my diet.

A couple days eating right at below maintenance, big changes. Couple days blowing my diet out of the water, big changes. Lol.

Anyways, at 200lbs, i find i can get quite cut at 2500 calories per day. With any ratio that is. 1g protein/lb, plenty of carbs, ~25% fats. Or low carbing, high protein, etc. At 2000 calories i cut even faster, but it's harder. You get hungry! Lol.

Anyways, at my bw X 12.5 calories, which comes out to 2500 calories, i get cut. At 10x bw in calories, i also get cut. Although i think for maximum muscle preservation, the higher calories will help.

Just disagreeing with your statement:
"I need to get my average intake well below 10cals/lb to get things moving."

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (LittleBigHorn @ Dec. 03 2004,11:27)]Hmmm... so everything I've been taught about the importance of those weekly refeed days is basically poppycock

No, it's not pockycock, but understand what Pauly is telling you here, as he is right on the money.

@ 14 to 15% BF signalling from your fat deposits, remember Fat has been shown to be a substantiative endocrine organ, isn't changed that much, it isn't until you get to lower BF% that changes need to be made to "manipulate" further reductions. So again I concur with Pauly reduce your caloric intake, maintain SS cardio then when you acheive a lower BF%, start looking into differing strategies to get you below the 9 or 8% barrier. Such as CKD or UD2. But I personally believe it can be done without these "tricks", through being consistent.

I think that's the other thing that Pauly is trying to get across. You have to remain determined and consistent in your approach.

Here's the other detriment to one day refeeds (besides they don't do a whole of good) that hasn't been mentioned yet, refeeds allows one to cheat, if the person has had difficulty with overeating and eating trash in the past, this opens pandora's box and all those poor eating habits then get reinforced again, not good IMHO.

Jusy my 2 cents and neither are wheat pennies so it might not be worth much

 

[Cliner9er]

Here are the choices for stalled weight loss:
1. Eat less
2. Move more
3. Eat at maintenance for 1-2 weeks, try again.

A refeed scheme can maybe milk about an extra 1-2 weeks out of a cutting cycle before leptin and other adaptations start winning out over lypolysis.

At 14% BF a refeed may be needed once a month or once every two weeks at the most. Lance, anecdotal experience is just that. If the OP isn't losing fat with the data he has provided then it isn't working. Example: I lost weight at 5000 kcal/day, prove me wrong...see, you can't.

 

[Heavy Duty dude]

Quote[/b] (Pauly @ Dec. 02 2004,5:16)]

Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ Dec. 02 2004,4:20)]...also try upping the calories a bit for more than one day, one day does little to reset the metabolism...

At 14% his metabolism doesnt need resetting every week. Doubtful it needs resetting at all with a 2400 calorie intake!

It depends on the person. Those with a higher fat setpoint have to begin to use a cyclical diet sooner.

Me for example..

 

[Heavy Duty dude]

Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ Dec. 03 2004,12:11)]Oh yeah I forgot another Reference, the GOD of CKD
Lyle McDonald
From his Book "UD2"

Quote[/b] ]One of the factors I've been considering lately has to do with the duration of the overfeeding
period. While it's true that 5 (or 12 or 24) hours of concentrated overfeeding will raise leptin, the
more important question is whether that's sufficient to "tell" the brain that you're fed. While data
(especially in humans) is nonexistent, my hunch is that it is not.
My basic reasoning is this: there's a lag time of several days between the drop in leptin and the drop in metabolic rate (nervous system output) for example; I'd be surprised if a mere 12 or 24 hours was sufficient to reverse this. Rather, I'd expect it to take a similar amount of time for
the reversal to occur. The more extended logic of my reasoning is beyond what I want to put in this book, email me if you must know.
Now, this isn't to say that short carb-loads/refeeds aren't of benefit. They refill glycogen, turn off catabolism briefly and maybe induce an anabolic response to boot. They also let you eat some of the crap you're really craving which helps psychologically. But I doubt they are sufficient to affect metabolism very much. Instead, a longer refeed is most likely necessary. The drawback, of course, is that longer refeeds have a tendency to put too much bodyfat back on
which goes against the entire goal of dieting.

From my experience, this is true. A one day refeed is not enough.

Try a full 3 day refill. Full carb-up the first day and slightly above maintenance the 2nd and 3rd day.

I don't really understand why some people say that when fat loss has stopped you have to increase the cardio or reduce the calories.

The real question imo is : why did the fat loss stop in the first place? It has stopped because the level of leptin and the metabolism have crashed. Doing more cardio or reducing the calories doesn't really solve the problem. It's just a temporary patch which puts you even more is starvation mode and prepares you for a rebound..

For instance, the UD2 is meant to always be in a state that maximizes fat loss, which means that you are never in starvation more. And you can go to low bf levels with it with virtually no cardio.

I suggest you read the UD2 book if you haven't already.

Imho..