Dup, Rpe And Hst

Discussion in 'Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST)' started by krysix, Nov 22, 2014.

  1. krysix

    krysix New Member

    Hello! lately I've been reading a lot about rpe and dup and sounds promising. I wonder if anybody have tried to mix DUP, RPE and HST. mix HST and DUP seems doable but I don´t know how to incorporate autoregulation into HST using RPE and fatigue.
     
  2. Old and Grey

    Old and Grey Super Moderator Staff Member

    I now use DUP with HST all the time because some studies have shown DUP to be superior to weekly or bi-weekly period changes. I have also seen better results in lagging muscle parts and it is less boring.

    RPE is mostly used in evaluating aerobic exercise programs. It's usefulness in hypertrophic or strength weight lifting is limited, at best. It may be more useful to Cross Trainers, Circuit Trainers and the like. I see no benefit when incorporated with programs based on HST principles although I am certainly open to becoming more educated about this.

    If, in fact, you are really looking for an auto regulation technique, going to failure or, even better yet in my opinion, going to within one or two reps of failure is a time proven effective auto regulator for weight lifting and reduces the subjectivity to close to zero.

    I question even RPE's usefulness in aerobic training due to its highly subjective and individualistic rating scale. Even its acronym contains the letter P standing for perceived. Heart rate monitoring, adjusted for your aerobic conditioning, is probably a better measure of intensity.

    Good question though. It is nice to see people inject new thoughts to mull over.

    Just my $.02 although some would say it is only worth $.01. o_O
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2014
  3. krysix

    krysix New Member

    Tnx for the reply. I'm talking about the RPE method used in the reactive training system and they use RPE for powerlifting with great success (or that's what people say). They autoregulate de daily and weekly volume through rpe and fatigue percentages. I've never seen anything like that used in aerobic exercises but maybe it's a different approach to RPE cause I know it's an old concept but not used in the same way. http://www.powerliftingtowin.com/autoregulation/

    Regarding to DUP, how do you do it? I was thinking something like
    weeks 1-2 16 12 8
    weeks 3-4 14 10 6
    weeks 5-6 12 8 4
    weeks 7-8 push the weight
    week 9 a well deserved SD
    But then I only have 2 workouts at a given rep range to increase the weight each 2 week cycle and in vanilla HST I had 6. other way to do it is just doing 15/10/5 all the weeks and just start at 70% of that rep range max and adding 5% each week but then I don't go close to failure till the last weeks and I'd prefer going close to failure once every 2 weeks or so like in the vanilla HST.
     
  4. Old and Grey

    Old and Grey Super Moderator Staff Member

    Sorry for the misunderstanding. I thought you were referring the Repeated Percevied Exertion method. I am not a power lifter so I will leave that question for someone more knowledgeable to answer.

    I work out at least 4 times per week and alternate between 12 and 8 reps twice each and every week. I hit my maxes at week 6. Going close to failure has, in my opinion and supported by many fairly new studies, been over rated. That being said, I do regulate my exertion by using Myo reps and increasing the time between sets as I progress in weight. Typically, in the first week, I may rest only 5 seconds between My0 reps but get up to 15 or even 20 by week 6. I feel it accomplishes more than a straight linear time progression. Both methods you suggest are feasible. Try both and see what best meets your needs.
     
  5. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    I'm not convinced that HST and DUP are compatible if you buy into Bryan's thoughts on exposure to load. i.e. if you expose yourself to 8RM in week 1, then doing 12RM work the following week is pointless other than potential metabolic stress; it isn't heavy enough to induce microdamage and the necessary adaptations (hypertrophy) that follow.


    Putting that aside, Mike's work on RPE should be employed to pretty much every lifting routine IMO. The old adage of 'listen to your body' is useless to proabbly 90% of trainees because most aren't advanced enough to effectively do that across the spectrum of workouts.

    I use a form of a DUP and practice RPE in every set/cluster. I'm less precise/quantitative about this fatigue systems, but that's due to laziness rather than criticism of the method.
     
  6. adpowah

    adpowah Active Member

    I agree with everything said here and I am prepping for a run at DUP myself. There is a pretty popular study going around titled 'Physiological Responses To Two Different Models Of Daily Undulating Periodization In Trained Powerlifters' The most effective program outlined in this study is quoted below and can be found on page 46-47 of the pdf.

    Here's a link of my 6 week interpretation of what is being stated above. Drop your 1rm in column E for the first three lifts and then when you pull your amrap (as many reps as possible) it will recalculate your 1rm based on your best set.
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OBPW7-VMEMmxNv-RUlUQXIn1frj0CCKlEi6H4yRacQo/edit?usp=sharing
    I performed the first day of hypertrophy ([email protected]%) and it was abusive. For bench I missed the last the last set and only got 6 reps. The volume for a single workout was far higher than I was used to, but power seems pretty easy and then strength's amrap should self regulate.

    There are definitely some things about DUP I don't get, like; why does HYP volume decline throughout the cycle? Why is POW such an easy day? How do you incorporate accessory work? Can you exchange some squat work for DL work? Anyways, going to give it a shot.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2014
  7. leonardopm

    leonardopm Member

    So, when are you planning to try DUP? I've been reading about and it sounds interesting.

    Any thoughts? Anybody?
     
  8. adpowah

    adpowah Active Member

    I am hoping this will be my first consistent week at it. The past three weeks have been pretty hectic and I have missed a workout or two from each week. Regardless I have been able to hit at least the hypertrophy day each week. The abuse is declining as my body is getting used to so much volume in a single day.

    Squat has increased a couple of reps on the amrap day (and my mobility has increased fairly substantially).

    Deadlift has been semi-stagnate I hit 335x7 last week and I did the same this week. My reps were cleaner and my form was better, so I take that as a minor win.

    Bench actually improved substantially and I hit 190x9 on my amrap day. I consider this pretty material since the first day of hypertrophy for bench I struggled to hit my 5x8 and missed the reps on the last set.
     
  9. leonardopm

    leonardopm Member

    Could you share your DUP routine and cycles?
     
  10. adpowah

    adpowah Active Member

    Sure I linked a shared google spreadsheet above. I just follow what my interpretation of the the study's workout was. In the spread sheet you really only need to fill out the numbers in white cells, the yellow cells are calculated. I have the days listed as Hyp, Pow and Str which is the order you should perform them in. Personally I just do Mon, Wed, Fri but I'm sure you could space it differently if it was more convenient to you.

    In cells E3-E5 put in your 1RMs for the lifts and then on your Strength day put in your reps for each lift. In the linked workbook on Str day I did squats @270lbs for 3,3,5 which gives me a projected 1rm of 315. If that exceeds my previous listed 1rm (cell E3) then next week it will add 5lbs to my 1rm for the calculations (for progressive overload). Since my squat projection was below then I would stay at the same weight until next week. You can see with my Bench and Deadlift they both increased. In addition to this as you progress through the 6 week program the % increase and the reps or sets decrease (as is shown in the study).

    Based on my own recovery, if on my amrap set I achieve a projected 1rm greater than my current I call it good and just hit the following sets for a single, you can see this on my deadlift. However I was feeling good on the bench so I continued with the 3 sets of amrap on bench even though I knew I wouldn't beat the initial 7 reps.

    Anyways if you more interested in hypertrophy I'm not sure this is a great plan. I think this program has built in peaking so as to achieve the greatest 1rm. Anyways, that's just my initial thoughts.
     
  11. leonardopm

    leonardopm Member

    So, would you consider this more as a strength program than hypertrophy?

    I read once that one should emphasize the sessions related with his goals when on a non linear periodization program. For instance, if the goal is hypertrophy you can do hyp, pow, hyp, str, hyp, pow, etc.
     
  12. adpowah

    adpowah Active Member

    Yeah Layne Norton made mention of that, for me personally I'm not familiar enough with this plan to make any adjustments like that. Until I get more experience I won't really understand the Power day.
     
  13. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    I have a lot of thoughts on DUP, but a few quick remarks;

    - There isn't a hypertrpophy 'range'; a recent study looking at 'strength vs hypertrophy' covered this. Omar Isuf covered it in a video some months ago for anyone wanting the reference details. Adding weight to the bar, and volume within the range of 'minimum-effective' and 'overtraining' will make you both bigger and stronger.

    - The 'power' session seems like a poor interpretation of "speed work/power building". However, various lifters (Mike T being the most prominent) have proven that you can't ellicit maximum contraction speed or force production from a muscle at a sub-threshold load, and that threshold is above 70%. The best power work (IMO) is exercises that literally depend on rep speed to complete the rep; cleans and power cleans, high-pulls, push press, and back squat of course.

    - I tend to favour strength on day 1, power/accessories on day 2, and more volume at day 3 - assuming M-W-F-break split.

    - As above; if your goal is hypertrophy; get stronger and add volume. Repeat.

    - Accessory work really shouldn't be more than 2-3 work sets (or in the 10-20 rep range) and should be the usual suspects IMO.

    - I'm a big fan of using partial range and pause mimics as accesory work; overhead presses, deficits and rack pulls, pause and front squats. Chins, rows and leg press are also very good.
     
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  14. adpowah

    adpowah Active Member

    Yeah I'm not sold on power day as Dr. Z has it in his study. It seems like it will function as a minor stimulus and more of an active recovery. I will go in and do my best the blast it though, I will probably use power as my day to add in a little accessory work. Though one thing that he did prove pretty thoroughly was that the order of the days, doing HPS rather than HSP elicited a greater volume over the course of the study and subsequent greater 1rms.
     
  15. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Two points to make;

    1. Sample size of that study - you can only take so much on anything that doesn't have say, 10,000 sample size. 7 billion people on the planet, probably 20 or 30 billion through the years. It's definitely a small sample size ;).

    2. I arrange my programming as; Strength-Accessory-Volume. However bear in mind that I don't train each lift the same way. I'm at the point where I'm about to drop bench because who gives a f**k about bench and just do OHP and dips for pectoral maintenance. I train on Saturdays as well for things that I don't train on Friday - OHP, maybe some extra chins, will add in Abs too when I get back into the full swing of things.


    I expect that HPS would definitely give better results than HSP. You could approximate that as Heaviest-Heavy-Light-Break; not enough time between the two heavier loads.


    I would absolutely use 'power' as an accessory day; rack pulls, box squats, split squats etc.
     
    adpowah likes this.
  16. leonardopm

    leonardopm Member

    Do you see as feasible maintaining (or growing) the pectorals only with dips and OHP? I'm a bench lover but the idea is interesting...
     
  17. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Absolutely. The function of the pectorals is to pull the arms downwards and across the torso (ala hugging yourself).

    Dips are by far the best exercise to use the pectorals in their preferred ROM. Decline Bench is a close second.

    'Bench' just has a revered quality about it because it trains muscles that people see in the mirror. Being one of the 'big three' has also assisted in this regard.

    OHP is a pet favourite of mine and along with the deadlift is (IMO) the best strength test there is. It creates fantastic deltoid development (obviously) and a close grip is very effective for triceps as well.



    I just find bench to be boring, rather pointless, incredibly non-functional (at least in primal times a push-up would have been done every now and then) and honestly not really worth the time. It is a fantastic power exercise for that class of movement though. Anyone playing rugby, NFL, AFL or other brute-force sport variants should absolutely be benching.
     
  18. leonardopm

    leonardopm Member

    My current gym is very limited and doesn't have a dip station but I found that I can do dips on an empty weight tree, as I tested yesterday.

    I'm seriously thinking about trying dips instead bench in the next cycle. The only thing to solve now is how to implement progressive resistance, I haven't seen weight belts selling in the local stores...
     
  19. Old and Grey

    Old and Grey Super Moderator Staff Member

    Use a regular training belt or even a belt for your pants, a chain and a clip. Hold dumbbells between your feet. Weighted boots, weighted vests. There are a number of ways to accomplish this without buying weight belts with special attachments.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2014
  20. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    In addition to the suggestion from @Old and Grey, you can simply by chain link (actual chain) and sling it around your neck//over shoulders on each side. I have multiple pieces that are 1.5m long, and weigh 3kg each.
     

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