EOD/IF for bulking or recomp

B

beingisbeing

New Member
I've been chatting with bluejacket about this in my log, figured I'd open it up over here.

How would you guys distribute your calories for an IF/EOD recomp or bulk?

For cutting I used Maintenance + some against 1/2 maintenance with great success.

When switching gears though, my confusion is just how much of a rift should there be between lifting and off days.

For example one could recomp/cut with maintenance +1500 on lifting days, and half maintenance on off days...

or maintenance + 500 on days, maintenance -500 off days.

For a lifter with maintnenace of 2500 calories, this would still give a 500 calorie (17500-17000) deficit for the week, either way.

Thinking about a true, but slow, bulk is even more zany, as potentially your 'on' days could have crazy calories just to satisfy a net + 2000 per week (if you wanted to keep your off days way low), let alone 3500.


Thoughts?
 
being

i left for vac. the same day you posted this and PM me. i just got back so.......

doesnt look like folks had much interest in the question.
from my perspec. bulk is very diff then recomp. if you really want to gain it is going to come down to 2 things, cal surplus and p-ratio (which will determine where the wgt you add primarely goes). at the end of the week you will still need a cal surplus the gain muscle regardless of strategy. from my exper. it was only when i bumped my "off" days up to maint. (with w/o days being maint+700 or so) did i gain wgt (and muscle). slow bulks and IF eating can help with keeping the fat at bay (to a degree) and improve p-ratio some but as ive said many times before, you just cant signif. change your ratio. this is real bitch for folks like us (or maybe just me) who have the interest, know how, exper, and determination to really make some signif. changes.......just not the body type to make those changes in a reasonable time frame. im not saying it cant be done but patience seems to be the real key ingredient here.

im toying with a few ideas concerning my next bulk ,which is slowly starting this week, that deal with some of the question your pondering now. the bottom line is how to get the most cal intake around w/os while still keeping hunger etc. at bay all while keeping it on a reasonably sane IF sched.

im sure well talk more later.
 
I've experimented with the IF bulk and it ended up basically what bluejacket said. Off days were around maintenance and lifting days were considerably over maintenance. I wasn't counting calories very closely at the time but I estimate it was around probably 750-1000 over my estimated maintenance at the time. Off days varied from just slightly under to just slightly over maintenance.

In the end, I still got fat but I do feel like I made better strength and size gains (which I have unfortunately lost most of...
sad.gif
) though not vastly better than a normal straight bulk. Since you are coming off from cutting down from being a little overweight, I'm sure it would be easier psychologically for you to deal with bulking without fearing getting too fat if you did some variation of an IF bulk. Like bluejacket said, I think you'll want to ensure that you are having a sizeable weekly calorie surplus.
I guess the real question is how far above maintenance can you go on lifting days without gaining too much fat. If I were you, I wouldn't try to go much under maintenance at all during your off days, but it's up to you. Whatever you try, I'd like to see how you do it and how it turns out.
 
Blue and Tot

Thanks for the replies. I had stopped checking this thread sorry if they're old!

From tinkering and questioning on Lyle's site, the consensus seems to be a nattie can't make much use of 500+ so I've taken that as a natural cap per day.

Of course all caloric calculations are estimates, so 500, 700, whatever, same thing.

I guess the point is not to go nuts expecting steroid like effects.

You're right about that psychological ease Tot! Naturally I'm paranoid of fat gain. I'd rather gain muscle as slowly as possible if it means attenuating that gain. I don't mind making this a long haul, as I'm sure most of don't. Long term results count, stick, and feel better.

In consequence my plan as of now is to start with an over/under recomp set up and see what happens. I'll adjust from there after a few weeks of observation.

I'm very interested in Layne Norton's 4 week bulk/2 week cut set up. In principle it sounds perfect. Gain a 1b a week, hopefully 50% fat 50% muscle (2 and 2), and then cut lightly for 2 weeks, ideally losing 2 lbs fat and 0 (cross those fingers) muscle.

Net gain, 2 lbs of home grown organic beef. Rinse and repeat.

If only things worked out that mathematically precise! But he seems to make it work.

I'm going to have to play it by ear, but I hope to be able to make something of this nature work. Starting slower obviously to keep my neuroses at bay, hopefully 1 lb every two weeks with improved P ratio and then cut.

HST seems nicely set up to accommodate this as well. You can always add 2 weeks of 5's with reduced volume at the end of your cycle in lieu of negatives, toss in some cardio and PSMF days, and chop chop.

I've never bulked so I'm speculating here. And I thank you guys for your assistance and feedback as always!
 
I'm experimenting here, too. I think the fat burning part is largely dependent on the amount of glycogen stored and the higher the carb content (and hence the calories), the less fat are burned. The net fat gain is largely dependent on the fat content of the food [1]. The IF (or EOD) appoach make DNL less likely, but the lbm gains might not be that large as on a regular bulk. One way to cheat the system might be to cycle macronutrient intake (not in the strict sense). High carb/high protein, followed by simply high protein/low carb. Carb stores are filled first and then depleted over the course of some days, depending on activities (from a depleted state, you may eat roughly 700 grams of carbs before DNL kicks in - half of this will be oxidized right away - total non-DNL-storage is approx. 500 grams) [2]. Filled stores means no net glucogenesis is needed (protein sparing). Then eat your protein surplus and there will be a net storage of protein (as seen from studies [3]). Protein stores are unlimited (well, they are PS-limited), but plenty will also be oxidized. Then as glycogen levels drop off, fat burning increases. The net result is that you have some buildup of muscle and hopefully had a minimal fat gain. Any prolonged carb feeding above maintenace will, according to studies [2], trigger DNL, since the excess glucose have nowhere to go, except DNL and higher oxidation (which is nearly maxed out when stores are full, anyway). I wouldn't exceed the limits if I had no choice. Well, I won't, anyway. I set the protein limit at 3,3 grams/kg/day. Since fat gain is unwelcome I will keep fat content to a minimum (only necessary EFAs are welcome). This equals an EOD 1000 kcal surplus for me (I might get it above this with a little tinkering).

Now, I'm not saying I have all the facts, but this is what my research have yielded (human studies) and computer models of nutrient usage (not entirely finished with that one yet). Do you have additional info, that migh help me adjust the reasoning above, please do present it, as I'm neither interested in balloning up the wrong way.

The Layne Norton way is interesting, but as you know I'm also interested in the shorter 7d/7d scheme (truncated ABCDE diet). The plus in both these apporaches are the elevation of growth promoting hormones, and the minus is the fat gains. Of course we can shed the fat later, but it is psychologically disturbing to increase the flab. I might turn that way if my own gain/cut-EOD-experiment turn out unsatisfactory.

References:
[1]Carbohydrate–Fat Interactions and Obesity Examined by a Two-Compartment Computer Model - Flatt, JP
[2] Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man -Acheson et al
[3] Protein turnover and thermogenesis in response to high-protein and high-carbohydrate feeding in men -Robinson et al
 
being,

i do think a stab at laynes strategy would be interesting. i will certainly follow your log etc. if you do head that route.

personally, im working out the details/nuances of improving (hopefully) on my prev. IF bulk. most of that centers around keeping the off days (2x week) @maint or even a little under with carbs kept around 100g or so. w/o days (3x week) will prob. be around maint. +700 or so with most of the carbs (and plenty of them)coming around w/o. weekends will be maint. with the carbs falling in around 150-200g. i typically have one big cardio day on sat., usually 2-3hrs of mtn hiking fasted and the rest of the week just normal activity and cycling to the gym.

my prev bulk was successful (better part. then "normal" bulking fast or slow) but i felt i stumbled in a few areas that i could improve on.....carbs and hunger.

100g of carbs for a bulk is pretty low, even for an off day, but i want to give it a shot as ive noticed some real insulin sensist. issues in the past. i cant say im 100% married to it since i havent given it more then a few days but it is one of the areas i allowed to slip a bit during my prev bulk.

the hunger ties in as well as i noticed i had no trouble with IF eating most days but when i wasnt real busy i began to anticipate 3pm (fast break) at around 1-2pm and the hunger/carb jones was a real problem those days....espec. off days which had no w/o and fewer cals. to solve this im shooting for as many cals (@maint) but primarly from pro. and fat with less carbs and ive been having a small meal (usually eggs) around 1-2pm. not exactly 16/8 anymore but i dont care, those occas. hunger jones really messed with my resolve.

anyway, ill keep you posted as to how it goes. im always trying to evolve/better my diet and training yet still keep a "realistic" view about what im trying to accomplish. even with all this detail about macros-timing-cal levels-insulin-etc. etc. im still only seeing moderate improvements over the standard "eat a lot, lift heavy, dont track" bulking approach from yrs ago.

just trying to strike a good balance between attn to detail that makes a diff. and the realization that it mainly comes down to lifting heavy and eating surplus....and time of course.

good luck
 
Sounds good blue.

For what its worth, according to this chart, 100gr of carb seems to be a good number for bulking on cyclical diet. Its enough to derail unwanted protein oxidation, and following a high carb day, probably just enough to keep things as anabolic as possible while minimizing spill over into fat stores.

Carbs...yeah. My off days will be lowered carb for sure as well. 100 minimum, haven't decided if I want to go over that. I'm happy low carb, high carb, but right in between is when the incessant hunger starts. I too suspect insulin issues (hyperinsulinemia to be specific).

I am going to give that Layne method a stab for sure, but how and when depends on how my initial recomp rides it. I'm going to need a good way of determining WHAT I'm gaining, because I tend to look more muscular than I am with a few lbs of extra fat.

I'll be monitoring strength very carefully, compared to waist line and other circumference measurements. I'm looking for a center where I can get professionally tested once a month.

Keep a log and I'll be your biggest fan. But it seems like you have a great handle on your body, so I wish you the best of luck on this one but you probably don't need it!
 
being

good info from lyle. i had read that before somewhere,or at least parts of it.

well see how the plan goes. i do fine on (reasonable) low carb but motivation can be a factor. some days im more tired and/or less optomistic then others and its a struggle to keep to the plan....espec. when bulking which has soooo many much easier routes.

i may consider a log. honestly most of it would prob. be after the fact and some goals/plans for the near future. i never seriously considered it until your post.

well see.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top