extending 15s, 10s etc......

B

bobpit

New Member
I do not test my maxes during SD. I examine my previous logs and usually I just increase my maxes by an standard increment (the 5%). It works for me.

Usually I manage to lift my maxes set at the end of every 2 week cycle. But then I do not go to the lower reps. I try to increase the weights by 5%, as far as I can. Usually 1-2 workouts.

So I will do 7-8 workouts for 15s, then I will go to 10s. I will do my maxes on the 6th wo for 10s. Then I will increase the load for 1-2 wo on the 10s, trying to make even better PRs. And so on.

This keeps me VERY motivated.

This is influenced by the "Bill Starr 5x5" strength program.

Any one doing something similar? Any comments?
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I do not test my maxes during SD. I examine my previous logs and usually I just increase my maxes by an standard increment (the 5%).</div> I increase by whatever the increments were.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Usually I manage to lift my maxes set at the end of every 2 week cycle.</div> I try to beat my maxes if in the comfort zone. (shorting failure)
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">This is influenced by the &quot;Bill Starr 5x5&quot; strength program.</div> My sentiments exactly! I thought, wow, how did we both end up here? I'll have to try your trick of extended highrep cycles sometime. I think I've done it by accident tho; I'd have to look back thru the logs.
 
When I can extend a 2 week training and improve on the estimated PRs of the 6th training day, I always increase accordingly the loads of the subsequent trainings for the same exercise.

Now that I think of it, I should never try for 2 full sets, when setting new PRs. Even at 15s. If I manage to extend my 6 wo period enough, then I should make my 1st wo of the next 6 wo period with some light weights. Ie add a 7th wo with a lower increment. This way I have time to recuperate from the new PRs. Plus I will exaggerate the zigzag and help on the strength factor. Since I put emphasis on strength.
 
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(quadancer @ Jan. 11 2008,18:41)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">This is influenced by the &quot;Bill Starr 5x5&quot; strength program.</div> My sentiments exactly! I thought, wow, how did we both end up here?</div>
I've just finished reading about Bill Starr's 5x5 program. It seems to share some of the same principals as HST. Anyway, it looks very interesting and I'd like to know how you liked it. Did you progress to your satisfaction? Tomorrow I finish the 10's of my 2nd HST cycle. I'm wondering if I should try 5x5 immediately after my 2 weeks of 5's. I was originally going to max-stim for couple of weeks after the 5's. Maybe I could do the 5x5 after 2 weeks of max-stim . Any thoughts? Am I mixing things up too much?
 
I did not make any extraordinary progress with the 5x5, but neither did I with HST. Still 5x5 and HSTs are the basis of my workout.

The way I do it (although not that strict, since it is hard to plan for a 5 month period) is this:

I do an HST cycle the way O described above, then immediatelly followed by a 5x5 cycle. But, since I just finished HST with heavy 5s, I will adjust the 5x5. Instead of building to my maxes in 4 weeks, I will back up more, start a little lighter and reach my maxes in 5 weeks. So I will have time to recuperate. After the 5x5 cycle, I do and SD. Then repeat (ie HST, 5x5, SD - HST, 5x5, SD).

One thing I learned is the value of zig-zag. When you stall, back up and built up to the maxes again. It works for me.
 
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(bobpit @ Jan. 12 2008,09:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">One thing I learned is the value of zig-zag. When you stall, back up and built up to the maxes again. It works for me.</div>
The zig-zag was the one part of HST that I had a hard time accepting. Now that I'm almost at the end of the 10's on my 2nd cycle (I extended them to 4 weeks), I'm really looking forward the the zig-zag at the beginning of the5's. I did my 10RM on routine &quot;A&quot; Friday and will do routine &quot;B&quot; tomorrow and need a little decrease in intensity for a couple of workouts.

Thanks for the reply, Bobpit. I'm also interested in hearing about Quad's experience with 5x5.
 
Quad got strong. Much of the strength I have today came from that 5x5 cycle, done right. You and I have the age on, so don't expect too much growth from it, but you will get stronger. Bob may have the best system in here; alternating the HST with it.
I don't zigzag my HST; I seem to be able to handle it that way. Ever since I'd come out with that linear progression method, I've not cut back the weights. IMO, cutting the reps IS cutting back the weights, at least the workload.
 
I was going to run a 5x5 a while ago but being sick and injuries interrupted it only a week in. So I just took a week off and started another HST cycle two weeks ago (just finished 15's).

My plan right now is to do this HST cycle for 6 weeks and work right into a 5x5 after the normal two weeks of 5's. I have a feeling it will be much more beneficial than simply extending the 5's like I was doing. Just extending the 5's burned me out quick and I usually had to stop after two weeks.

I'm hoping to get at least 8 weeks out of the 5x5 cycle. Four weeks to work back up to my 5 rep max again and then hopefully Four or more weeks of improving my 5 rep max. Then I would probably take the Monday and Wednesday right after I stop the 5x5 to retest my 15 &amp; 10 rep maxes before taking an 11 day SD. Then do it all over again.
 
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(quadancer @ Jan. 12 2008,10:25)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">IMO, cutting the reps IS cutting back the weights, at least the workload.</div>
I agree.
 
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(Bulldog @ Jan. 12 2008,14:36)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">My plan right now is to do this HST cycle for 6 weeks and work right into a 5x5 after the normal two weeks of 5's.</div>
I've given this some considerable thought, and this is what I've decided to do. The 5x5 program is so similar to HST that I'm going into it directly after the 10's. Why do the HST 5's for 2 weeks and then take 2 steps back and work up to your 5RM again with 5x5? After I hit my 5RM in the 4th week I'll play it by ear and continue until I feel the need to SD and then start another HST cycle.
 
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(EL_VIEJO @ Jan. 12 2008,20:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I've given this some considerable thought, and this is what I've decided to do. The 5x5 program is so similar to HST that I'm going into it directly after the 10's. Why do the HST 5's for 2 weeks and then take 2 steps back and work up to your 5RM again with 5x5? After I hit my 5RM in the 4th week I'll play it by ear and continue until I feel the need to SD and then start another HST cycle.</div>
If I was doing an HST/5x5 transition cycle, I too would not do the 5's mesocycle for HST.
 
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(colby2152 @ Jan. 12 2008,21:34)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(EL_VIEJO @ Jan. 12 2008,20:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I've given this some considerable thought, and this is what I've decided to do. The 5x5 program is so similar to HST that I'm  going into it directly after the 10's.  Why do the HST 5's for 2 weeks and then take 2 steps back and work up to your 5RM again with 5x5? After I hit my 5RM in the 4th week I'll play it by ear and continue until I feel the need to SD and then start another HST cycle.</div>
If I was doing an HST/5x5 transition cycle, I too would not do the 5's mesocycle for HST.</div>
I have thought about this quite a bit as well. And I think there will be some benefit to doing the 5's in the HST cycle as I normally would. I think that the loads at the beginning of the 5x5 will be close enough to my 5RM to continue to produce growth while also offering somewhat of a zigzag affect to allow the cycle to be stretched out longer. And if I felt that 4 weeks was to long to work back up to my 5RM then it could always be shortened.

But I have also considered doing exactly what you are saying and just substitute the 5x5 for the 5's portion of the HST cycle. And I may end up doing that instead. I have a couple more weeks to think about it while I work through the 10's.
 
the 2 weeks of 5s in HST are very different from the initial 4 weeks of 5x5. Different exercises.

I would not shorten the initial 4 weeks of 5x5. If anything, I would make it longer, maybe 5 weeks.
1) You need the back off to recuperate after the HST.
2) Starting with heavier weights is the major reason to fail the 5x5.

If you do it right, then after a month, you can set new PRs every single week. Don't rush.
 
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(bobpit @ Jan. 13 2008,03:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">the 2 weeks of 5s in HST are very different from the initial 4 weeks of 5x5. Different exercises.</div>
I see what you are saying, especially since 5x5 starts off at 90% of your 5RM where HST would start at about 75%. I'd miss the zig-zag that I've been looking forward to after 4 weeks of 10's (I extended the tens for reasons that I've now forgotten
blush.gif
).

As far as different exercises, I guess that depends on what one was doing during the HST cycles. Here's what I did for the 5's &amp; 10's.
A B
Squats Deadlifts
Romanian DL
Dips Bench Press
Cable Rows DB Rows
Military Press DB OH Press
Hammer Curls Incline Curls

For the Madcow version of 5x5 I'll be doing

Mon Wed Fri
Squats Squats Squats
Bench Press Military Press Bench Press
BB Rows Deadlifts BB Rows

Assist. Hyper Ext Dips
Exercises Curls
Tri Ext

So you can see that the only thing I'm dropping is Romanian DL's. I'm still doing squats, deadlifts, horizontal press, vertical press, horizontal pull, and even curls. Also I'm adding in chins/pullups on the 1st 2 w/o's every week. I can't do pullups for sh*t, so I'm starting out with 10 reps max stim style and will shorten m-time until I can get 10 continuous reps.
Anyway, there's no turning back now. I did my 1st 5x5 w/o today and it felt great. I was really surprised. I'll post my progress at the end of the 1st 4 weeks.
 
Good luck el viejo, 5x5 is a great program for strength and mass. Anybody have the original book by Bill Starr? The strongest shall survive. He invented the 5x5 I believe.
 
You guys are really making me work here...and you've pretty well arrived at the best synopsis of all IMO...it's great to see guys working together instead of arguing fine points. I actually have nothing to add: you got the answers right I'll bet. I've been extending this cycle with 3's and now MS, so I've been doing a little studying.
Bull, you live over the pond, right? How much is this:
=C75 (I tried to make that little Euro thingie) I used to know pounds, but not the new Euro's exchange.
 
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(EL_VIEJO @ Jan. 15 2008,16:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I see what you are saying, especially since 5x5 starts off at 90% of your 5RM where HST would start at about  75%.</div>
This is why I figure it would be best to do the two weeks of 5's as I normally would and then start the 5x5. Jumping right into the 5x5 as laid out by Madcow would be starting pretty close to my 5RM. And I already learned that is not a good thing for me to do. I need to work my way up to that kind of load. And it seems like the full 6 week HST cycle is the best way to get there.
 
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(Bulldog @ Jan. 15 2008,21:08)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(EL_VIEJO @ Jan. 15 2008,16:07)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I see what you are saying, especially since 5x5 starts off at 90% of your 5RM where HST would start at about 75%.</div>
This is why I figure it would be best to do the two weeks of 5's as I normally would and then start the 5x5. Jumping right into the 5x5 as laid out by Madcow would be starting pretty close to my 5RM. And I already learned that is not a good thing for me to do. I need to work my way up to that kind of load. And it seems like the full 6 week HST cycle is the best way to get there.</div>
Bulldog,
I initially thought I would have problems jumping right into 5x5, but I was surprised that I handled the weight without any problem. However, you gotta do what you think is best for you and not what others think is best for them.

Quad,
I live across the pond in Spain. 1 euro is $1.50, so 75 euros is approx. $112.50. Every time I think the $ can't go any lower the next day it does.
 
Yesterday was my 6th wo for the 15s.  I only did 1 set per exercise.

I managed to do new PR in DL (15x118 kgr).  But I felt exhausted from the effort.  I think I could have pulled one more rep though.

After the 10th rep, I would pause every 1-2 reps at the starting position, take 4-5 very quick and deep breaths (total 3-6 seconds) anf then procced to the next rep. Is this cheating? Does this count as 1 solid set?

After the DL set, I rested for about 4-5 minutes and proceeded to weighted Dips.  

I did less Dips than expected (12 dips with 7,5 kgr extra weight).  I felt tired.  Obviously from the DL effort.  

What is the solution to this?  Just rest longer between the exercises?

Then I procceded to chinups.  Again I did less than I normally do.  

Then I did DB military press (standing).  Set new PR (15x20 kgr).  I guess presses are much less metabolically taxing, so my body could cope with it.  

Then I did biceps curls and triceps extentions.  Normal performance, could not set any PR there.
 
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