Extending 5s instead of negatives
- Thread starter SweetDaddyPatty
- Start date
Bulldog
Active Member
Well, I started my workout last monday and when I was warming up durring squats my knees were bothering me. So I decided to SD this week instead of pushing my knees any harder. Which got me thinking....Is it really worth pushing 5's more than 4 weeks and taking a risk of an injury from the heavy load used in the 5's when you should be able to SD and continue to grow without pushing the 5's more than 4 weeks? Maybe it is ok for the younger guys but I find that at 37 years old my joints aren't what they used to be...and they were never that great when I was younger!
That depends on how fast you want progress. But yeah, usually if the joints are hurting too bad, that's a sign to SD...
Personally, going all the way down on squats rarely makes my knees hurt. It's only when I get sloppy with form and only go to around parellel that my knees start to bother me a lot.
Personally, going all the way down on squats rarely makes my knees hurt. It's only when I get sloppy with form and only go to around parellel that my knees start to bother me a lot.
scientific muscle
New Member
I have the exact opposite problem of Totentanz. I was doing ATG squats, and had pain in my knees, started doing parallel squats and pain is gone, also my thighs grew 1.5" in the last 2 months, more growth than I when I did ATG squats. Every one has a unique body...which is why I don't believe in cookie-cutter routines.
Anyway, back to the subject, I don't bother with negatives, I believe in extending the 5's for as long as you can make strength gains. More strength gains, generally mean more hypertophy. I also I second what Totentanz said about drop sets, it is better to just do more sets at the same high load, than to do more sets at lower loads.
Anyway, back to the subject, I don't bother with negatives, I believe in extending the 5's for as long as you can make strength gains. More strength gains, generally mean more hypertophy. I also I second what Totentanz said about drop sets, it is better to just do more sets at the same high load, than to do more sets at lower loads.
I
imported_domineaux
Guest
Just finished 4 weeks of fives...x 3 sets.
I'm reluctant to SD, because I've been going up everyother day on the weights. I was astounded today that I could add more weight. In fact, from reading other posters comments I'm in a good place. I add load/weight almost everytime I workout. I don't have to load the same for days at a time, and then add load.
I know it's too good to be true, and I'm probably close to hitting the wall...just can't see it.
So, like others have mentioned, unless I hear otherwise I'm staying with the 5s until I'm not adding more load/weight. EVen then, I'm thinking I need to give it a couple workouts before I do SD. Somedays I'm just not as strong in some exercises. I think that is mostly from having to adjust my exercise routine, because the gym is so busy.
I generally don't try to stay with what should be next exercise. I do have a sequence I follow as close as possible. Workouts at a busy gym make it hard to follow a strict sequence of exercises.
One thing I do try to do is alternate between exercises that involve pushing or pulling, with not more than 2 pull or 2 push exercises together. I can't tell for sure if it's a big benefit, but it seems to help in my case.
My routine is rigorous, but it has really bumped my metabolism up.
I never take more than 1 minute of rest between sets, and never more than 3 minutes between exercises. I know... I probably won't be able to keep that up in the 15s, but I sure will give it my best.
I'm reluctant to SD, because I've been going up everyother day on the weights. I was astounded today that I could add more weight. In fact, from reading other posters comments I'm in a good place. I add load/weight almost everytime I workout. I don't have to load the same for days at a time, and then add load.
I know it's too good to be true, and I'm probably close to hitting the wall...just can't see it.
So, like others have mentioned, unless I hear otherwise I'm staying with the 5s until I'm not adding more load/weight. EVen then, I'm thinking I need to give it a couple workouts before I do SD. Somedays I'm just not as strong in some exercises. I think that is mostly from having to adjust my exercise routine, because the gym is so busy.
I generally don't try to stay with what should be next exercise. I do have a sequence I follow as close as possible. Workouts at a busy gym make it hard to follow a strict sequence of exercises.
One thing I do try to do is alternate between exercises that involve pushing or pulling, with not more than 2 pull or 2 push exercises together. I can't tell for sure if it's a big benefit, but it seems to help in my case.
My routine is rigorous, but it has really bumped my metabolism up.
I never take more than 1 minute of rest between sets, and never more than 3 minutes between exercises. I know... I probably won't be able to keep that up in the 15s, but I sure will give it my best.
Go for it Dom. It ain't broke yet!
domineaux: Fantastic mate. I'm sure you don't need me to tell you but don't SD until your joints are telling you to take a break (or you start feeling really worn out). Keep going as you are until you can't add more weight without losing form and then stick to those loads for a few weeks as you will still be benefitting from lifting them. They'll be your new 5RMs for next cycle.
<div>
(Totentanz @ Oct. 07 2006,12:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Only increment once a week or at the very most, twice a week. I would greatly prefer once a week incremenatation during the 5s. Start at about 80% of your 5 RM and ramp up over a few weeks until you hit your 5 RMs. The next week, add weight where you can and keep pushing your RMs up. You should be able to increase them for a few weeks at least. Stop doing this when you can no longer add weight on to your RMs.
Record new 5 RMs and use these to build your next cycle.</div>
Sorry to dig to this old thread, but have to ask...
So does this mean that you still do the basic 5s for 2 weeks, like this?
# of WO:
1. 80% of 5RM
2. 80%
3. 90%
4. 90%
5. 100%
6. 100%
Or do you do a week for 80%, a week for 87,5% and reach the 100% at the monday of the 4th week? Would the progression of weights be too slow like this? Or what is the "few weeks" anyway?
(Totentanz @ Oct. 07 2006,12:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Only increment once a week or at the very most, twice a week. I would greatly prefer once a week incremenatation during the 5s. Start at about 80% of your 5 RM and ramp up over a few weeks until you hit your 5 RMs. The next week, add weight where you can and keep pushing your RMs up. You should be able to increase them for a few weeks at least. Stop doing this when you can no longer add weight on to your RMs.
Record new 5 RMs and use these to build your next cycle.</div>
Sorry to dig to this old thread, but have to ask...
So does this mean that you still do the basic 5s for 2 weeks, like this?
# of WO:
1. 80% of 5RM
2. 80%
3. 90%
4. 90%
5. 100%
6. 100%
Or do you do a week for 80%, a week for 87,5% and reach the 100% at the monday of the 4th week? Would the progression of weights be too slow like this? Or what is the "few weeks" anyway?
The second thing you said, where when you go into the 5s, you start at the bottom and only increment once a week. The progression is still good enough to stay ahead of RBE. When you are in the 5s, anything around 70-80% of your 5 RM and higher should remain an effective weight for more than a week, so using each weight for an entire week won't hurt you. Further, once you hit your old 5 RM, by that point you should be stronger, which should allow further progression for at least a while.
"A few weeks": What I would do is 80% on week one, 85% week two, 90% week three, 95% week four, 100% week five. On week six, add 5% and try for new RMs. On week seven, try to add another 5% if you can. If you can't, at least shoot for 2.5% more. You should be able to squeeze out another week where the RMs go up at least another 2.5% or so, unless you are already deadlifting 600 lbs, in which case, strength gains may be a bit slower.
Once you are maxed out and can't increase your RMs any longer, I would still stick with those new RMs for two more weeks, unless you are burning out real bad. If joints are starting to hut and you are burning out, then make a note of your new 5 RMs and SD.
Otherwise, this is the time when I would start introducing negatives on which lifts you can do them with, while sticking to using your new 5 RM on other lifts. You could also drop down to 3s on lifts in which you cannot do negatives, and try to push the strength gains even further.
You could easily stretch the 5s/post5s out for 10-12 weeks doing this.
"A few weeks": What I would do is 80% on week one, 85% week two, 90% week three, 95% week four, 100% week five. On week six, add 5% and try for new RMs. On week seven, try to add another 5% if you can. If you can't, at least shoot for 2.5% more. You should be able to squeeze out another week where the RMs go up at least another 2.5% or so, unless you are already deadlifting 600 lbs, in which case, strength gains may be a bit slower.
Once you are maxed out and can't increase your RMs any longer, I would still stick with those new RMs for two more weeks, unless you are burning out real bad. If joints are starting to hut and you are burning out, then make a note of your new 5 RMs and SD.
Otherwise, this is the time when I would start introducing negatives on which lifts you can do them with, while sticking to using your new 5 RM on other lifts. You could also drop down to 3s on lifts in which you cannot do negatives, and try to push the strength gains even further.
You could easily stretch the 5s/post5s out for 10-12 weeks doing this.
Ok, thanks! This is just yet another new piece of information after reading the FAQ, which really should be updated...
Is this 10-12 week of 5s your idea? I mean, is it in line with the original HST idea? It's just that the 2-2-2-negs is a bit different from 2-2-12-negs. The original concept puts the 5s in the same line in the sence of effectiveness to hypertrophy, but doesn't the extending of 5s to 10-12 weeks state that they would contribute more for hypertrophy than the 15s and 10s?
One more thing, I did the 5s like the 15s and 10s, reaching the 5RM in 2 weeks. So concidering this first cycle, what would you recommend me to do? Just add some weight tomorrow, do it a week, add weight, do a week, and so on? Or should I drop off some weight and start building the way up again towards the 5RM, or target to like 110% of the original 5RM?
Is this 10-12 week of 5s your idea? I mean, is it in line with the original HST idea? It's just that the 2-2-2-negs is a bit different from 2-2-12-negs. The original concept puts the 5s in the same line in the sence of effectiveness to hypertrophy, but doesn't the extending of 5s to 10-12 weeks state that they would contribute more for hypertrophy than the 15s and 10s?
One more thing, I did the 5s like the 15s and 10s, reaching the 5RM in 2 weeks. So concidering this first cycle, what would you recommend me to do? Just add some weight tomorrow, do it a week, add weight, do a week, and so on? Or should I drop off some weight and start building the way up again towards the 5RM, or target to like 110% of the original 5RM?