Fat gains

J

jishaq

New Member
I just finished my first bulking cycle ... I did the standard 15/10/5/5, 2 sets routine on MWF with very minimal cardio. Checking the mirror, I saw considerable muscle gain and some fat gain -- I'm pretty psyched about the former, and was anticipating the latter. All in all, I would say it was a success!

In hindsight, I think one mistake I made that caused too much fat gain was in setting my primary goal as "Eat to gain 1.5lb/week." Now, I am 6'5" and currently 204 pounds at 18.5% bodyfat. Maint = 2160 cal/day. My daily diet strategy for a very long time has been: fixed 250g protein, then 20% total calories from fat, and carbs for the rest (complex when possible, esp after lunch).

During the 8-week cycle, my weight and bodyfat went up steadily. I gained 9 pounds and my bodyfat increased by 2.9%. My caloric consumption was 3000 calories/day, and I was meeting my ideal weight-gain of 1.5 pounds/week. But right around when I moved from 10RM to 5RM, my weight gain slowed, though my bodyfat gain continued steadily. I bumped my calories up to 3500/day, which strangely didn't seem to alter the rate of weight or bodyfat gains (weird) -- maybe it went into muscle growth? Anyway, that was what I did.

I just wanted to run this by you guys and see if you had any tips for me for my next cycle, which, given my current bodyfat, will be a cutting cycle rather than a bulking cycle.

I'm thinking my new goals for this cutting cycle will be:

* eat maintenance + 500 calories a day and see what happens after 8 weeks. None of this 3500 calorie stuff. Analyze & learn from this.

* Same 15/10/5/5, 2 reps, 3 days a week. I liked the results of this, and it didn't keep me in the gym too long.

* Add 30-40 min cardio 4 days a week (swimming)

* Switch up the exercises so I don't get bored (e.g., bench press instead of incline bench; lat pulls instead of pullups; etc.)

* expect bodyfat loss; don't expect muscle gains.

Thanks!
-Jeff
 
You were on a 3000cal/day diet during the cycle and gained a decent amount of LBM AND fat? That's interesting...because I'm also 6'5 at roughly 190lbs, and using all the equations out there for calculating your maintenance level based on activity level, etc., I calculated a maintenance level of around 3500cal/day, and 3800-4000cal/day to gain weight. How you gained weight at 3000cal/day is beyond me...maybe I'm misunderstanding something?
 
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(markobenin @ Aug. 22 2007,20:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">You were on a 3000cal/day diet during the cycle and gained a decent amount of LBM AND fat? That's interesting...because I'm also 6'5 at roughly 190lbs, and using all the equations out there for calculating your maintenance level based on activity level, etc., I calculated a maintenance level of around 3500cal/day, and 3800-4000cal/day to gain weight. How you gained weight at 3000cal/day is beyond me...maybe I'm misunderstanding something?</div>
Hey,

Maintenance of 3500 cal/day? Wow either you have a crazy high basal metabolic rate, or you do a ton of cardio each day. I'm new to HST, having completed my first bulking cycle only a week ago. But my understanding is that you definitely do not want to do much cardio during a normal HST bulking cycle -- something like a 20-minute run twice a week being sufficient. Can you elaborate on your numbers.

Curious how old you are? Is 190 the weight your body always tends to if you are not focusing on a weight gain/loss plan? I'm 32, 190 is definitely my 'normal' weight, and my bodyfat is typically 12-18%. Unless I'm on a particular bulking/cutting plan. I'm trying to up this to 200 lbs, but it's been very difficult!

When I computed my basal metabolic rate, I used the following calculator:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/calrmr.htm

Here's my math. I hope this isn't too boring. The calculator gave me 2164 calories/day basal metabolic rate (BMR). Then to get my daily maintenance caloric intake, I looked at my daily activities. For bulking phases, my daily activity consists of lifting 3 days a week (518 calories per session), and doing light cardio (20 min) the rest of the week (~400 calories per session), which I average to ~500 calories a day. So my maintenance caloric intake when bulking is BMR (2164 ) + 500 = 2664. Next, if I hope to gain 1 pound per week during bulking, which I've learned from my last bulking cycle is realistic for my body type (shooting for a 1.5lb/week gain resulted in a 1.5% monthly bodyfat gain which was too high for my liking), that's 3500 surplus calories a week, or 500 calories per day. So to get my daily caloric intake during bulking, to gain 1lb a week, I add maintenance + surplus = 2664 + 500 = 3164 calories a day.

So reflecting on my previous bulking cycle, for my next bulking cycle, I will try to eat 3164 calories a day, do HST on MWF, light cardio rest of the week (I usually go for a long walk on my rest day), and anticipate gaining 1 lb/week and maybe .5% to .75% bodyfat per month. Nutritionally, for my next bulking cycle, I will aim for fixed 250g protein a day, then 20% total calories from fat, and the rest in carbs. For 3164 calories, that means daily consumption of 250g protein, 70.3g fat, and 382.8g carbs, which I break up into 5 meals. For me, that's a TON of eating!

Would be curious to hear from someone with more experience whether my math adds up or not. I'm just doing empirical experiments at this point.

-Jeff
 
Well to answer your first question, I'm 19, so my metabolism is probably higher compared to you, but that doesn't really have anything to do with using the equations to figure out one's TDEE. Allow me to walk you through the way I calculated my TDEE and then simply added 500cal to that to make it a &quot;bulking diet&quot;.

To figure out BMR, I tried a variety of equations and all gave me roughly the same estimate. I'll list two of them to show you the proximity of estimated BMR using 2 separate equations:

1) BMR = 370 + (21.6*LBM in Kg)

At 190lbs and roughly 10% body, I plugged in the values as follows:

BMR = 370 + 21.6*(190/2.2 - 19/2.2) = 2050cal

2) BMR = 66 + (13.7 x weight in kg) + (5 x height in cm) - (6.8 x age)

BMR = 66 + 13.7*86kg + 5*195.58cm - 6.8*19
BMR = 2098cal

So let's say an average of 2075cal as my BMR.

Finally you multiply your BMR by your activity level, ranging from 1.0-2.0 (Sedentary, very light activity, light activity, moderate activity, high activity, extreme activity)

I chose to multiply by 1.6 (moderate activity) as this description fits me best: &quot;By moderate activity we mean having a non-physical job, performing some sort of physical activity during the day, and including a daily workout session in your routine. This is where most of you are at.&quot;

This gives me a TDEE of 3320cal. This is considered maintenance since this is how much my body uses on training days. So I added 15-20% to this value in order to bulk as is generally recommended, I obtain: 3818cal-3984cal.

This is my first cycle of HST (I'm still on the first week of 15s) and my first time counting calories and assuring my macronutrients are in appropriate ratios (55%/30%/15% of carbs/protein/fat). So I'll have to wait a few more weeks to update you on what kind of LBM and fat gains this gives me, but according to all the diet information I've been reading lately, it's puzzling to me how you gained the weight you did at a significantly lower caloric intake than what I calculated for myself...
 
My metabolism at 32 was entirely different than at 19 , I'm definitely NOT an expert in the diet department but I'm guessing this has an awful lot to do with it. The difference in T-levels between a 19 and 32 year old probably has more than just a little to do with how the body(s) DIRECT the calories too - once again though let me make perfectly clear I'm a tard when it comes to this stuff .
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(markobenin @ Aug. 23 2007,16:32)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">... multiply your BMR by ... 1.6 (moderate activity) as this description fits me best ... This gives me a TDEE of 3320cal. </div>
I see! Ok, so it sounds like the big discrepancy is between how you and I computed our respective maintenance levels; otherwise, our BMRs were similar, which makes sense given our similar body types. You used a multiplier, and I simply summed up my activity, and that produced a big variance.

The frustrating thing is, there is no correct answer. I did a bunch of caloric intake computations before embarking on my first 8-week HST bulking cycle, recorded my weight and bodyfat percentage (as well as the all-important look-in-the-mirror test), and analyzed the results very carefully after I was done. I used this analysis to tweak my subsequent cycle. That's the best advise I can give you, which unfortunately doesn't do you much good until you've completed at least one cycle and have data to analyze.

To mitigate, on your first cycle, you can simply adjust as you go. For example, what are your goals over your 8-week (?) bulking cycle? If you want to gain 1.5 pounds per week (I understand this is a fairly reasonable goal), see where you are at 3 weeks into it, and decide if you need to bump up / keep steady / bump down your caloric intake.

I would suggest using a consistent weight &amp; bodyfat measurement instrument at the same time, and record your data each day. In hindsight, I skipped a few 3-4 day stretches here and there, and this made my data kind of difficult to plot for trend analysis, etc. So next time around, I'm going to be damned sure to weigh myself every day when possible! Also, I only made a single adjustment to my caloric intake during my 8-week cycle, and this complicated the post-cycle data analysis, so I personally would try not to change anything mid-plan unless you absolutely have to (i.e., you're not gaining any weight at all ... but I don't think you'll have that problem if you are in fact really able to eat 3800 calories a day, which can be astonishingly more difficult that it would seem!)

I would be curious to hear of your progress.

-Jeff
 
Ya I'll definitely keep you updated with my progress, so far the weight training part of the cycle is going smoothly and I think my gains will come down to how my diet works out for me. I'll weigh myself every time I go to the gym (MWF) and record the data in excel or something and that way I can see how the general trend is going. As far as fat%, we have those electronic body fat% gadgets that you just hold with your hands and it calculates your fat%, however I don't know how accurate they really are...but I'll probably keep using that as it seems like I would be around 10% judging from my leaness (I wouldn't expect more having played basketball for 10yrs, only recently I eased off to try and get bigger).

Let me know how your 2nd cycle is going. Have you started it yet? If so what week are you on? And what kind of caloric intake do you plan on having? Are you going to be going for bulking or cutting?
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So let's say an average of 2075cal as my BMR. </div>

I like where you are thinking, but I would go with the higher one if you are bulking and lower estimate if you are cutting.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Finally you multiply your BMR by your activity level, ranging from 1.0-2.0</div>

I was trying to slow bulk for a half a year in the spring of 2006. I went by different activity levels each day, and the results of two cycles showed that I either ate too much or too little. I didn't gain as much muscle as I would hoped, and gained a bit more fat. Just a personal story to warn you about such estimations. If you are bulking, you would want a higher BMR estimate to keep you on the safe side of overeating.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The frustrating thing is, there is no correct answer. I did a bunch of caloric intake computations before embarking on my first 8-week HST bulking cycle, recorded my weight and bodyfat percentage </div>

No there is not. Using the equations and counting calories are all pure estimates. You have to shift them and over/under estimate according to your cut/bulk. After some analysis of your cycle, and where your theoretical weight and bf% should be, you can realize what your metabolism is and does.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I would suggest using a consistent weight &amp; bodyfat measurement instrument at the same time, and record your data each day. </div>

I hear an echo in the room -- or HST forum.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">As far as fat%, we have those electronic body fat% gadgets that you just hold with your hands and it calculates your fat%, however I don't know how accurate they really are.</div>

Those machines are complete crap. Their day-to-day fluctuations can be huge and the error is much larger than any other bf% method. There are a few other ways that you can calculate your bodyfat%.

1) You could use an equation that Fausto uses a lot. It is fairly accurate, and it is one of a few equations that I use in a weighted average...
<u>
Body Fat Formula For Men</u>
Factor 1: (Total body weight x 1.082) + 94.42
Factor 2: Waist measurement x 4.15
Lean Body Mass: Factor 1 - Factor 2
Body Fat Weight: Total bodyweight - Lean Body Mass
Body Fat Percentage: (Body Fat Weight x 100) / total bodyweight

2) Pick up a cheap skinfold caliper. I use the AccuMeasure 3,000 which is a simple plastic device that will cost you $5 US bucks. It is very accurate if you are strict with the measurements, and you do a few of them.

3) Gold standard of bf% testing: hydrostatic weighing ~ this costs a lot, I never had it done, but it's something that I would like to do four times a year when I have money.

There really isn't any other method worth listing unless I am forgetting one.

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Well to answer your first question, I'm 19</div>

I was 19 when I started HST. About 75 lbs and 26 months later, I am at the same bodyfat%. Take advantage of youth.

One last thing -- your mind is in the right place. Check out my Optimizing Your Caloric Intake thread in my signature. There is plenty of good information in there about figuring out your BMR/TDEE, estimations, and calorie counting.
 
Not to fear, I looked (and read!) your &quot;optimizing caloric intake&quot; thread a few days ago when this whole diet fiasco began.

Using that formula for body fat % you listed, I came up with 9.8%, which is close to the 10% rough estimate I came up with. In another thread, it was listed that if you have a 6-pack, you are at around 8%, and I've had one for as long as I can remember, so I figure my range for fat% is pretty clear and it's obvious I won't be cutting any time soon
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I used the higher BMR estimate with the 1.6 activity level, the rough caloric range for bulking for me is still 3800-4000cal, so I think if I eat anything in that ball park I should (hopefully) gain some serious mass this first cycle.

By the way, gaining 75lbs in just a little over 2yrs is incredible, and this was all using HST? Amazing...
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">By the way, gaining 75lbs in just a little over 2yrs is incredible, and this was all using HST? Amazing...</div>

Yes + the cream and the clear -- j/k! I have great genetics for putting on any type of weight. The first 15lbs or so was muscle memory, and the rest was all hard work and HST!

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I used the higher BMR estimate with the 1.6 activity level, the rough caloric range for bulking for me is still 3800-4000cal, so I think if I eat anything in that ball park I should (hopefully) gain some serious mass this first cycle. </div>

Just watch out that you don't eat TOO many calories!
 
Hahah don't you worry about that, it's no walk in the park for me to put on weight, so I'm praying HST and this new 4k cal diet will change things a bit.
 
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(markobenin @ Aug. 23 2007,19:42)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Let me know how your 2nd cycle is going. Have you started it yet? If so what week are you on? And what kind of caloric intake do you plan on having? Are you going to be going for bulking or cutting?</div>

I've switched to a cutting phase now. On my last (and first-ever) HST bulking phase, I was eating 3500 calories a day. I gained 3% bodyfat, which was more than I had hoped. I did notice a satisfactory amount of muscle growth (mirror test) and weight gain that occurred during the first 4-5 weeks, and then seemed to slow toward the last 3 weeks, right when I entered my 5RM phase. Not sure what was going on there ... maybe next bulking cycle I'll consider changing my nutritional ratios near the end (more protein?).

I actually haven't officially started my cutting phase yet. I took a week of SD while I ramped my diet down from 3500 to 2600 calories and ramped UP my cardio (which is 100% swimming at this point due to a bunk knee). That was last week, and I realize that SD is &quot;optional&quot; if you are entering a cutting stage, but my body really seemed like it wanted to rest so I wasn't going to argue.

This week, I'm measuring the 15/10/5RM's for a slightly different set of exercises ... I switched around my HST exercises a bit due to a knee injury and also to prevent boredom, and I'm very anal and methodical about dialing in my RM values over the course of 4-5 days at the gym, so I'm thinking I'll probably actually start my cutting HST phase next week in earnest.

On a side note, it was really helpful to spend a good deal of time (i.e., not rush it) when determining my RM's. I was a lot stronger than I thought on quite a few exercises; it's a little hard to admit this, but I simply wasn't pushing as much weight as I could over the past year or so on some exercises. A self-imposed plateau, ugh. Here, HST was very helpful in transcending this plateau simply by forcing me to determining my RM's.

Here's to good progress, and keep us assessed of your results!

-Jeff
 
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