For those who like to lift heavy

[Lance]

From thread "Just to throw a little spice in the soup"

Quote[/b] ]I actually agree that an optimal application of HST would probably jettison 15 and 10s altogether.  After your 2-week SD, you would go into 3 week period of 5s (longer because there has been no conditioning up to that point), followed by a 4-week period of progressive negatives.  In addition, we'd throw in load stretches from the get-go, then rachet up to "pulse-stretches" during the negatives.  You decondition 14+ days, and start again.
Of course, training that heavy has its own problems.  It can be very hard on the joints.  The post-SD DOMS would be severe enough to possibly cause problems with the high frequency progressive load.  Not everybody can do negatives (though everybody should  )  Finally, you would need to include additional metabolic work anyway in order to faciliate glycogen storage and endurance-related adaptations, both which contribute to protein synthesis as well as future fatigue management.
But, say, I were on a bet with somebody to put on size on a specific bodypart in a short time period.  The above is exactly what I would do.  Throwing out the 15s and 10s, I'm not interested in overall long-term success.  Rather, I'm interested in producing immediate results in a specific area, without regard to 100% safety, without regard to an ideal management of total continuous growth and decondition periods, without regard toward a conservative management of fatigue.  It is still HST but a different application of the principles.  And it starts to look like Vince's DOMS theory.

From thread "Customizing HST"

Quote[/b] ]Because you're jumping straight to 5s out of SD, you don't get a lot of protection with the joints.  Many movements just can't be done as negatives, thus you'll hit the ceiling with them a lot sooner.  To compensate, you could use a combination of load cycling and cluster (such as the above example) in order to keep pushing the 5RM ceiling -- and that is great if you want to balance strength gains with hypertrophy -- but you're then still limited by that ceiling.  Finally, 10s and most of 15s is still useful for growth.  If you could do 8 weeks of 5s and post-5s, you could do 10-11 weeks if you throw in 10s and 15s as well.  
It's a judgement call, then.  If you prefer the low-rep training, have no connective tissue issues, and can find enough negative-friendly movements, then it's a very attractive alternative to traditional HST.
You'd make your increments more linear and progress less often.  The reason you can do that is because, straight of SD, you're going to make a huge jump to about 70-75% of 1RM.  That is well, well above your muscle's initial conditioned state, meaning that your muscles will play catch up with you during the 1st week.  Thus, during that first week, you can start at a load slightly lower (2 increments at most) than you starting 5s, and then use a linear load increment toward the end of 5s.  For the first week and a half, you really don't have to change the weight often.  That works out to be roughly 3 weeks.
There are various choices you make with this; a lot of it will be related to exercise selection.  Because you're starting straight into 5s, I wouldn't implement loaded stretching until the last week of 5s at the earliest.  If you don't have stretch-point movements (the easiest to implement loaded stretching), then you would look into pulse-stretches with the compound movements.  Also, you would look into the DC stretches, fascia stretches, and so on.  Examples of such are listed earlier in this thread.

Okay i hope that's layed out nice and easy to read and look at. I'm starting up a thread, and calling you out Vicious!

I'm going to ask you for some help putting together a routine as above. First i'd like to work on the basics, just a basic routine.

Here's one:
Squats
Deadlifts
Bench
Chins
Clean and Press
Incline Hammer Curls
Overhead DB Tricep Extensions
Calf Raises
Ab work

Okay that's pretty simple and covers all the bases. So we have:

3 weeks of 5's
4 weeks of neg's

For exercises we can't do negatives on, we use cluster reps, correct? So basically keep increasing the weight, but split up the reps into as many sets as needed to get your desired reps (5?).

During the negatives we start loaded stretches. ?? You said last week of 5's at earliest, so i'm assuming it would be more optimal to take it another week later. ??

For metabolic work i'm not really sure what we do.

Wow, this is getting long.

We start are 5's at 2 increments lower at most. Well which one would you suggest, hehe? 1 or 2 increments lower?

Okay i'm going to stop now, i'll wait for your reply oh noble one, and we'll go from there.

 

[imported_hannesburk]

for metabolic work try the pulse-reps with contraction-movements (I tried it and if pump and burn was the goal and it obviously is, stick with them)..although there are other ways.well listed in the customizing-thread

cheers

 

[vicious]

Quote[/b] ]We start are 5's at 2 increments lower at most. Well which one would you suggest, hehe? 1 or 2 increments lower?

Whatever will give you at least 6 increments for the 3 week period. Because you're training right out of a 2-week SD, your conditioning will be WAY behind that heavier 70-75%-ish load. Therefore, you only need to have increments every other workout (assuming a 3x-a-week setup.)

Quote[/b] ]For metabolic work i'm not really sure what we do.

Depends on

Quote[/b] ]For exercises we can't do negatives on, we use cluster reps, correct? So basically keep increasing the weight, but split up the reps into as many sets as needed to get your desired reps (5?).

Exactly. You'd increment only once a week or so, but use cluster reps in order hit your rep quota.

For chins, though, you should switch into strong-range partials after 5s. Because the strong-range coincides with the stretch, partials will definitely contribute to growth.

Quote[/b] ]You said last week of 5's at earliest, so i'm assuming it would be more optimal to take it another week later. ??

Your DOMS will be pretty significant going into your first week, as you're already well ahead of RBE. If you add too much in the beginning, your strength levels will plummet, and then you'll have to take a few days to recover. Trust me; going into 5s after 14 days off is plenty for the first week.

I'd wait at least a week and a half before adding loaded stretches. No sooner than when the DOMS subsides and you partially recover your strength. It's a judgement call, really. I personally prefer waiting until you're into the post-5s.

Exception would be calves. Use LS right away. If you're not doing donkey calf raises, then use a 10-15 second loaded stretch with the calves at the end of your set. Lower your heel below the platform, curl your toes in, and hold.

Quote[/b] ]For metabolic work i'm not really sure what we do.

I'll be honest with ya; this 5s/Ns-only setup will be a lot of fun, except for the metabolic work.

This part is up to you. I'd recommend very short bout of HIIT cardio with a Versaclimber or a cross-country skiing machine in order to generate metabolic work for the legs and back. I'd throw in a 15s set for the bench to round yourself out. If you hate HIIT cardio, then you can do one 15s set after each compound exercise.

But, if you want to boost metabolic stress further (and your diet will influence that), then as Hannesburke says, pulsing with contraction movements (you can also pulse with the chin, albeit with low load) is the way to go. The burn can be excruciating, but it'll give you a wonderful pump, facilitate hightened glycogen storage (provided your carb intake is up), boost muscle metabolism, amplify MAPKerk1/2 pathway signal, and so on. Things that help out with myofibrillar hypertrophy. Of couse, the Customizing section has more thorough detail on that.

cheers,
Jules

 

[Lance]

I'm so pumped about starting this Vicious! Thank you so much. It's going to be a blast.

Is 14 day SD really necessary when you're starting off this heavy? From what i've learned here, it seems the lower the effective load you plan on using, the more SD you need. For instance, you definately want a 14 day SD if you're going to start your HST routine with 20's instead of 15's. For just 5's, would 9 day SD be enough?

15's vs. pulsing contraction movements will be something i have to decide on. I'll have to research a bit in the Customizing Thread, that beast of a thread. It will be a challenge, but i will prosper!

You mentioned this on Chins.

Quote[/b] ]For chins, though, you should switch into strong-range partials after 5s. Because the strong-range coincides with the stretch, partials will definitely contribute to growth.

Am i doing these in place of negatives? I know i can do negatives on chins, and wouldn't be stuck with cluster reps.

 

[Lance]

Okay i've made some decisions. For simplicity reasons to start this off, for the first cycle i'm going to do a simple set of 15's after my compound movements.

How heavy? Should i just pick a weight half-way through my 15's? Or just whatever's convenient? For instance, on bench and squats unloading the weights and keeping 135lbs on the bar would be most convenient. How is this different than a drop set? Is there any reason why i shouldn't do these with my non-compound movements? (aka arms, calves) Wow, never thought there would be so many questions to ask about doing a simple set of 15's after my regular sets.

Specializing, i'm going to work with what i usually work with. Trying to get a bigger chest and arms. For chest i'll throw in flat bench flyes. Since loaded stretch seems to be a specializing technique, i think i should just do them with arms/chest because that's my emphasist. So for arms and chest i plan on doing DC stretch, except for biceps. For triceps with overhead DB extension, like DC said, use my head to push the stretch even harder. For flyes, go as low as i can, stick chest out, arch back, etc. For biceps, not too sure. I'm trying to keep things simple. DC says 50% 5RM for his stretches, so that's what i guess i'll use for the tri's and fly's, not sure on bi's yet. Or should i just use the load i'm currently using with the weights? That would give the Loaded Stretches a progressive nature. For instance, during neg's (i wouldn't start LS until post-5's), i would do my negatives, then one more rep by a loaded stretch and just holding it. How long do i hold these loaded stretches for? 60 seconds? Until i puke? Lol.

Since loaded stretches are for extra strain, and i'm assuming they create more strain then just an extra set, you do the metabolic work afterwards, correct?

That's all i can think of so far. Sorry for being such a pest Vicious.

 

[vicious]

Quote[/b] ]I'll have to research a bit in the Customizing Thread, that beast of a thread.

6 . . 66 . . da numba of da beast . . .

Quote[/b] ]Is 14 day SD really necessary when you're starting off this heavy? From what i've learned here, it seems the lower the effective load you plan on using, the more SD you need. For instance, you definately want a 14 day SD if you're going to start your HST routine with 20's instead of 15's. For just 5's, would 9 day SD be enough?

It would. If you do just 9 days though, then shorten your 5s cycle to the normal 2 weeks.

Quote[/b] ]Am i doing these in place of negatives? I know i can do negatives on chins, and wouldn't be stuck with cluster reps.

In that case, go with the negatives. As with all of the negatives, try progressing every 5th day or so.

Quote[/b] ]Should i just pick a weight half-way through my 15's? Or just whatever's convenient?

Whatever's convenient (i.e. whatever gives you a burn.) You just want enough metabolic work to ratchet up the metabolism in the muscle and cover your bases. Now, ideally, yes, you'd want to progressively increase the burn (by slightly increasing load, increasing # of reps, pulsing, etc.), but for simplicity's sake, just go with the generic burn set.

Quote[/b] ]How is this different than a drop set?

True drop sets require resetting the weight. Fine if you're using selectorized equipment. Too much respite for anything else. Plus, if you're looking to really burn with a pressing movement, the Customizing section has a protocol whereby you switch from normal reps to strong-range partials to pulses to static holds with the same weight to accomplish the same thing. There's a section that orders the techniques by most metabolic stress to least. Which ones you use will largely depend on fatigue management, diet and energy stores (particularly carb intake), level of specialization, and # of exercises you're already using.

Quote[/b] ]So for arms and chest i plan on doing DC stretch, except for biceps. For triceps with overhead DB extension, like DC said, use my head to push the stretch even harder. For flyes, go as low as i can, stick chest out, arch back, etc. For biceps, not too sure. I'm trying to keep things simple. DC says 50% 5RM for his stretches, so that's what i guess i'll use for the tri's and fly's, not sure on bi's yet. Or should i just use the load i'm currently using with the weights? That would give the Loaded Stretches a progressive nature.

Use your loads. For the flies (and remember, flies should always be done to the ground), use whatever weight (which will be heavier than the 50% of 5RM) you're working with and just do a 10-15 second stretch (when you feel your muscle fighting you, then you know you've hit the reflex.) Same with the triceps, though lunge forward with the head. You may go longer if you wish.

Quote[/b] ]i would do my negatives, then one more rep by a loaded stretch and just holding it. How long do i hold these loaded stretches for? 60 seconds? Until i puke? Lol.

Whatever gives you the pull. If you do them way too long at this level of load (and you won't, trust me heh heh ) , you'll hurt yourself. Plus you'll detrain the reflex. If you end up doing 3 weeks of 5s, I'd recommend starting LS on the last week of 5s, so that you get a feel for them. You don't need to go all out like DC because you'll be doing these stretches 3x-a-week or more.

Quote[/b] ]Since loaded stretches are for extra strain, and i'm assuming they create more strain then just an extra set, you do the metabolic work afterwards, correct?

Yep. Last thing you do. You'll get a nice pump and feel really great about your workout too.

Finally, consider upping the frequency to 6x-a-week (in other words, twice-a-day, 3x-a-week.) If you do this, revise your diet accordingly.

cheers,
Jules

 

[Lance]

Thank you so much Vicious. I think i have my plan set now.

9 day SD
2 weeks of 5's
4 weeks of neg's

I'm thinking of just increasing the weight during the neg's weekly. That will give me 4 progressions.

I'm considering when i get to my 5rm, to just continue progressing the weights the same amount one week at a time. Maybe stick with my 5rm for the first week of neg's. ??

So i finally got it down. Do my normal set(s) whether it be neg's or 5rm/clusters to progress. Then do my loaded stretch for the exercises i'll do them on. Then some metabolic work, and presto! Muscle growth! Lol.

2 questions for the biceps. I'm currently using Incline DB Hammer curls as suggested by Blade and some others as the best biceps exercise. Results have been great since the switch. I often see you suggesting incline db curls, not hammer, just regular. Which one is better?

And for the second question, what can i do as a loaded stretch for the biceps?

Thanks alot for all your help Vicious, you're making my HST dreams come true.

 

[vicious]

Quote[/b] ]I'm considering when i get to my 5rm, to just continue progressing the weights the same amount one week at a time. Maybe stick with my 5rm for the first week of neg's. ??

That's the way to go. Stick to a weight for about a week, then see if you can go higher. Don't worry about contiguous reps, just do them cluster-style to get to your rep quota.

Quote[/b] ]Do my normal set(s) whether it be neg's or 5rm/clusters to progress. Then do my loaded stretch for the exercises i'll do them on. Then some metabolic work, and presto! Muscle growth!

Bingo!

Quote[/b] ]Results have been great since the switch. I often see you suggesting incline db curls, not hammer, just regular. Which one is better?

Regular. The regular grip adds extra stretch. (But the hammer grip is safer.) Ideally, you'd adjust the grip so that your pinkies touch the DB. This imbalance emphasize the stretch further.

Quote[/b] ]And for the second question, what can i do as a loaded stretch for the biceps?

Typically, you'd just hold the incline DB curl near the bottom without locking out. If that's not enough, then bounce at near stretch for 5-10 bounces. (But, I wouldn't recommend it until later.) The DC's stretch works well too, but it's tough to add a progressive element to it. Truth is, if you're doing negatives with the pulling and curl movements, the biceps will take care of themselves.

Quote[/b] ]Thanks alot for all your help Vicious, you're making my HST dreams come true.

If the cycle works out for you, we'll add even more techniques to amplify the effect. Yes, there's more. In any case, remember to eat a lot of protein.

cheers,
Jules

 

[Lance]

Thanks alot Vicious. I eat ~1g/lb, almost allways a little more from incomplete proteins. I basically put all complete proteins to add up to my 1g/lb, then put in all my fats to equal ~25% total fats, and fill in the rest with carbs. The carbs tend to bump my total protein to 25-50 above 1g/lb, but i know 1g/lb is all complete high quality sources.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (vicious @ Feb. 15 2005,1:49)]6 . . 66 . . da numba of da beast . . .

Woe to you Oh Earth and Sea
for the Devil sends the beast with wrath
because he knows the time is short
Let him who hath understanding
reckon the number of the beast
for it is a human number
its number is six hundred and sixty six.

Vincent Price's intro in that song still sends goose pimples down my back, 23 years later. I think it has something to do with an impressionable 18 year old mind and the Pharmaceuticals I was taking when they first released that album, ahhhh memories.

 

[vicious]

Quote[/b] ]eat ~1g/lb, almost allways a little more from incomplete proteins. I basically put all complete proteins to add up to my 1g/lb, then put in all my fats to equal ~25% total fats, and fill in the rest with carbs.

If you're going to training more frequently, you may want to bump up your (complete) protein intake into the 1-2g/lbs level. You know, more in line with the Max-OT and DC diets. It's up to you, though.

Quote[/b] ]Vincent Price's intro in that song still sends goose pimples down my back, 23 years later. I think it has something to do with an impressionable 18 year old mind and the Pharmaceuticals I was taking when they first released that album, ahhhh memories.

Kids. Bang the head that doesn't bang!!

cheers,
Jules

 

[Lance]

I'll consider it. I've messed around with up to 2g/lb of protein, as well as 1g/lb. Same calories. Messed around with the low carb, high carb. In the end i've noticed the calories matter the most. Lower carb seems to lean you out a bit bitter, but the higher carbs seem to keep your muscles looking full. I like full muscles. =)

Sometimes i consider taking the medium route, 1.5g/lb of protein for the rest of my life. Lol.

Right now i'm finishing up my HST cycle, 5xweek full body. I'm in my last week of 10's, so depending on how i feel through the 5's with the heavy weights will determine how frequently i'll train when i get to start this beloved HST cycle we've worked on. I'll probably do 5xweek full body again. I'm cutting right now though, i'll have to see how it goes with higher calories.

 

[vicious]

How is the 5x-a-week working for you? Do you like it so far?

I've found that the higher frequency is actually easier with the 5s. Instead of drudging through 10s, you enter "Kill That S***" mode with the 5s, which lends well to the higher frequency. Yeah, it's my favorite phase too.

cheers,
Jules

 

[Lance]

I definately like it so far. As said, we'll see how the 5's go. I feared with this higher frequency i wouldn't be able to handle the squats and deadlifts i'm doing 5x week, but it's no problem as long as the volume is kept lower to compensate. I kept my routine just about the same as you see above, i minimalized it for the higher frequency experiment. I'm emphasizing arms and chest, but only by doing 2 sets on bench and my arm moves instead of 1 set like the rest of the body.

Thus far, my arms seem to be growing while cutting. This is awesome, can't wait to add more calories sometime in the future. Have to get ready for a modeling show though, so need to be cut. A nice side effect of the frequent training, my calves (atleast during the 15's) were growing quite well too. So i like it, although people in the gym probably think i'm nuts doing a full body workout 5x week. Little do they know.

Plus, 5xweek as opposed to 6x week allows me that freedom on the weekends. I don't see myself doing the twice-a-days anytime soon. Havn't summed up the courage yet, and sometimes you just have to tell yourself as Dave Draper allways says, what's the rush anyhow?

 

[vicious]

Quote[/b] ]A nice side effect of the frequent training, my calves (atleast during the 15's) were growing quite well too

Calves growing during 15s?  Hmm, never had that before.  Bastard.  

  Yup, you'll grow like a monster with the next cycle.  

Quote[/b] ]  I feared with this higher frequency i wouldn't be able to handle the squats and deadlifts i'm doing 5x week, but it's no problem as long as the volume is kept lower to compensate.  

If you're having problems with the two during 5s, just cluster whichever you're doing 2nd.

The strain effect from higher frequency is more noticeable during 5s, to a point where RBE has problems catching up.  You *may* feel some latent DOMS as you approach the end of 5s. You're not eating up as much glycogen, and so your muscles will look fuller.  Results speed up as you approach the end.  

cheers,
Jules

 

[CardTopper]

Sounds like a great routine. How many sets of each exercise are you planning on doing during the 5's and negs?

 

[Lance]

I'm surprized it took so long for someone else to post in this thread.  I was starting to think i was the only one who liked lifting heavy.  
Right now i'm doing pretty much the same routine as above 5xweek.  I'm doing 1 set per exercise, but 2 sets for bench and 2 sets for the arm exercises.  I'm about to start my 5's next week so i'll see how that goes volume wise.
I'm most likely going to do it the same way as i'm doing it now, atleast for the first time through.  Only thing i'd change is since i'm going to be doing flyes as well, i'm only going to do one set for bench and flys.  That way i'm still doing 2 sets for chest and arms, and one set for everything else.
During the negatives, on exercises that i can't do negatives, my sets will vary because i'll be doing cluster reps, with a total of 5 reps still.  I consider that to still be one set.
Oh i almost forgot.  Add another set onto everything because i'll be doing a light set of 15 for metabolic work.
In my current cycle i've been logging everything i'm doing including pictures.  When it's done i'm going to post it all.  I'll be doing the same for this 'heavy' cycle (which i'll be VERY motivated for, i can't wait, i want to start now =) ).

 

[imported_ejones]

this is interesting to me as well. in my past hst cycles i have seemed only to grow during the 5s and negatives. i have been kind of unmotivated working out as of late and haven't really been going to the gym more than once every 4 days or so. i have been doing less volume than my normal hst routine and haven't reached a load at my 5 rep range yet so i could probably move right into something similar to what you're planning since the load should be more than enough and i shouldn't have much accumulated cns fatigue that would cause me to overtrain. what do you think? i'd be real curious to see how i'd respond b/c in the past i've gotten tremendous growth from negatives, but due to various factors i haven't done them recently.

 

[Lance]

What do i think?  What load are you currently using?

I'd say just take a week off and give it a shot.  Personally i'm ecstatic about it.  This is my dream, i hope it goes well.  Unfortunately, i've only done negatives once, about a year ago.  It was my first HST cycle.  Every cycle since has usually been cut off DURING the 5's believe it or not.  I'd be in my cycle, and researching, learning, planning my next cycle.  And i'd get too excited, blow off the rest of my cycle for SD and hit up the new one.  I've told myself i won't allow it this cycle, have to finish my cycles or i'm not following through with my goals.

But once this cycle is over, i'm all over this HEAVY HST BABY!

 

[vicious]

Lance's cycle may not be a great idea for you ejones, since I recall you've had connective tissue issues with the elbows. I'm not a big fan of skipping 10s and 15s (safety reasons and it's more "periodized&quot, but 5s+ training takes you straight into "Kill That S###" mode. It's a lot of fun.

For me, the cool thing about Lance's cycle is that he'll be throwing in a lot of optimizations right away into his routine. He'll know right away what works for him and what doesn't. Most people should wait to add stretch-point movements. Hell, because he's going straight into 5s, he gets to throw in that stuff for the first week! Loaded stretches, negatives . . . the modalities that stretch-point movements are really designed for, Lance gets to try them out really early into his routine.

cheers,
Jules