Hey guys. Have had pretty good success with hst. It is becoming very hard for me to recover with the full body 3 times a week format and I have not seen gains for a while. Diet has been good. Sleep good. I really want to switch up to some sort of split still incorporating hst principles where I hit each body part twice a week instead of 3 times. Also want to do this to incorporate some of the principles discussed on his forum at length on the wernbom papers and Bryan's recent suggestion on 30 reps upper body per session. feel like moving to twice a week body part will better incorporate the volume suggested in the paper and recently by Bryan. Issue is I do not want to do upper/lower split 4 days a week as my lower body is miles ahead of my upper body. I was thinking push/pull 4x a week would better accommodate my goals. My chest and upper back are really lacking. How would I set up good push pull routine for hst? Thanks for advice
Formulating Hst For Hitting Body Part 2 Times A Week
- Thread starter waray214
- Start date
If you are having a hard time with recovery now, I doubt scaling volume up to 30 reps for upper per session would be a great idea.
What is volume at now? How many reps per muscle group each session currently?
If you want to specialize on chest and upper back, why not just reduce volume for other bodyparts or eliminate them, and increase volume for chest/back for a cycle or two?
What is volume at now? How many reps per muscle group each session currently?
If you want to specialize on chest and upper back, why not just reduce volume for other bodyparts or eliminate them, and increase volume for chest/back for a cycle or two?
Currently I've just been following Vanilla hst 1x15, 2x10, 3x5.
Latest routine was...
Db slight incline bench/Chest dips alternating
Bb rows
Db shoulder press/Lateral raises alternating
Pull ups
Face pulls
Bb curls
Skullcrushers
Shrugs
Squats and Deads each once a week
My thoughts are I could do slightly higher volume with 2x a week frequency. Maybe add in some chest flyes or an extra set of chest. Face pulls seem to be helping with posture. Just starting to feel very burnt out once the 5s hit and load gets heavy.
I have noticed Bryan and even others have advocated an upper/lower split 2x a week as opposed to traditional fullbody 3x a week. Seems to be the way a lot of hardcore HSTers now do their routine. Even read a couple things you have posted Totentanz where you have been doing an upper/lower.
Problem is my upper body is way behind. Was thinking a push pull would work. But am concerned about working shoulder girdle 4x a week and possible overlap of bodyparts and overtraining. If I did do push/pull, would probably do something like the following
3 weeks 12s
3 weeks 8s
2 weeks 5s
Push- Mon,
Flat bb bench 2x12, 3x8, 5x5
Db shoulder press 2x12, 3x8, 5x5
Skullcrushers 1x12, 1x8, 1x12
Chest dips alt 1x12, 1-2x8, 1x12
Pull- Tues
Bb rows 2x12, 3x8, 5x5
Pulldowns 2x12, 3x8, 5x5
Bb curls 1x12, 1x8, 1x12
Face pulls 1x12, 1x8, 1x12
Shrugs 1x12, 1x8, 1x12
Push- Thurs
Inc bench 2x12, 3x8, 5x5
Bb sh press 2x12, 2x8, 3x5
Lateral raises 1x12, 2x8, 1x12
Close-grip bench (tri's) 2x12, 2x8, 2x12
Chest flyes 1x12, 1-2x8, 1x12
Pull- Sat
Deads 1-2x5
Db rows 2x12, 3x8, 5x5
Pull ups 2x12, 3x8, 5x5
Incline db curls 2x12, 2x8, 2x12
Face pulls 1x12, 1x8, 1x12
Rear delt raises 1x12, 1x8, 1x12
Again emphasis on chest and upper back
Latest routine was...
Db slight incline bench/Chest dips alternating
Bb rows
Db shoulder press/Lateral raises alternating
Pull ups
Face pulls
Bb curls
Skullcrushers
Shrugs
Squats and Deads each once a week
My thoughts are I could do slightly higher volume with 2x a week frequency. Maybe add in some chest flyes or an extra set of chest. Face pulls seem to be helping with posture. Just starting to feel very burnt out once the 5s hit and load gets heavy.
I have noticed Bryan and even others have advocated an upper/lower split 2x a week as opposed to traditional fullbody 3x a week. Seems to be the way a lot of hardcore HSTers now do their routine. Even read a couple things you have posted Totentanz where you have been doing an upper/lower.
Problem is my upper body is way behind. Was thinking a push pull would work. But am concerned about working shoulder girdle 4x a week and possible overlap of bodyparts and overtraining. If I did do push/pull, would probably do something like the following
3 weeks 12s
3 weeks 8s
2 weeks 5s
Push- Mon,
Flat bb bench 2x12, 3x8, 5x5
Db shoulder press 2x12, 3x8, 5x5
Skullcrushers 1x12, 1x8, 1x12
Chest dips alt 1x12, 1-2x8, 1x12
Pull- Tues
Bb rows 2x12, 3x8, 5x5
Pulldowns 2x12, 3x8, 5x5
Bb curls 1x12, 1x8, 1x12
Face pulls 1x12, 1x8, 1x12
Shrugs 1x12, 1x8, 1x12
Push- Thurs
Inc bench 2x12, 3x8, 5x5
Bb sh press 2x12, 2x8, 3x5
Lateral raises 1x12, 2x8, 1x12
Close-grip bench (tri's) 2x12, 2x8, 2x12
Chest flyes 1x12, 1-2x8, 1x12
Pull- Sat
Deads 1-2x5
Db rows 2x12, 3x8, 5x5
Pull ups 2x12, 3x8, 5x5
Incline db curls 2x12, 2x8, 2x12
Face pulls 1x12, 1x8, 1x12
Rear delt raises 1x12, 1x8, 1x12
Again emphasis on chest and upper back
If you want to focus on the upper body then I think an upper/lower split wouldn't necessarily be ideal. As Mick suggested, dropping the lower to one day a week for maintenance would be best for allowing you to really focus on the target muscles. For only the chest and back exercises, I would also set a rep target instead of using sets, so that you are doing 30 reps in the 12s, 25 reps in the 8s and 20 in the 5s. Do this with clustering, you could even do myo-reps in the 12s. I would prefer a target rep range though. If this explanation isn't clear, let me know and I will try to explain better. So in the 12s, I would shoot for 25-30 reps and just let your energy levels on that day determine how close you get to that total rep target. For 8s, shoot for 21-26 then in the 5s we would want to go with 18-24 reps. I will mark all lifts where you should be using a range with a * symbol down below.
For all other lifts, just follow standard straight sets: 2x12, 2x8, 2x5. The goal for those lifts is to maintain, not focus. Eliminate arm isos and other unecessary isolations, since they are just taking away from the back and chest focus. Get some big movers in there for back. Drop deads and replace with rack pulls. In the 5s, add in metabolic work for chest and back to each upper day, and for the metabolic work, you want to do high rep assisted or weighted dips and high rep pulldowns using a load close to your 15 RM and doing a couple sets of 12-15 reps.
Here is the actual routine I would do if I were in your situation:
Upper- Mon,
Bentover Row*
Flat Bench *
Pulldown*
CGBP 2 sets
Shoulder Press 2 sets
Lower- Tues
Squats or Leg Press 2 sets
SLDL or Leg Curl 2 sets
Calves 2 sets
Face pulls 2 sets
Push- Thurs
Rack Pull*
Weighted Dips*
Weighted or Assisted Chinups*
Chest Supported Rows or Cable Rows or DB Rows 2 sets
Shoulder Press 2 sets
Pull- Sat
BB Shrug*
Incline Bench*
Pullups or Pullovers*
CGBP 2 sets
Face Pulls 2 sets
Yes, a lot of the filler was trimmed off, yes there is minimal legs, yes you are barely hitting arms, yes you are barely touching delts. Delts and arms will get plenty of action from what you are doing here, legs just need to maintain and no, none of those muscles will shrink. The Rack Pulls and Shrugs will add some meat to your upper back if you eat enough and the chest (small muscles really, compared to the size of the back) are getting hammered enough to grow. Remember, all those calories you are taking in are being diverted to the muscles you are working, so dropping volume to maintenance on legs and etc allows more to be sent to the back and chest, which is where you are increasing the volume.
Again, if you aren't clear on how to do the volume for the exercises I put * symbols next to, let me know. The idea is that on days you are feeling really good, you will max out the volume and on the days that you aren't as energetic, you will do less volume in order to allow for recovery. It is important that you judge this correctly on a daily basis so you aren't just doing the minimal work every day because doing more reps is hard, and you don't want to go balls out every time either if you aren't always as fresh when walking in to the gym.
Run this for 8 weeks, then at the end of the 8 weeks, spend two more weeks where you drop down to 3x3 on all the * lifts and push the loads higher. During this time, you will drop down to three days a week, drop legs completely and drop all other exercises, doing ONLY the ones with a * next to them. You can keep in the high rep metabolic work of dips and pulldowns if you wish but do nothing else. You can stretch the 3x3 out to 3 or 4 weeks if you want.
What about diet? You got that part covered? You'll want to be taking in plenty of calories, protein and carbs during this, and make sure to get the right fats.
For all other lifts, just follow standard straight sets: 2x12, 2x8, 2x5. The goal for those lifts is to maintain, not focus. Eliminate arm isos and other unecessary isolations, since they are just taking away from the back and chest focus. Get some big movers in there for back. Drop deads and replace with rack pulls. In the 5s, add in metabolic work for chest and back to each upper day, and for the metabolic work, you want to do high rep assisted or weighted dips and high rep pulldowns using a load close to your 15 RM and doing a couple sets of 12-15 reps.
Here is the actual routine I would do if I were in your situation:
Upper- Mon,
Bentover Row*
Flat Bench *
Pulldown*
CGBP 2 sets
Shoulder Press 2 sets
Lower- Tues
Squats or Leg Press 2 sets
SLDL or Leg Curl 2 sets
Calves 2 sets
Face pulls 2 sets
Push- Thurs
Rack Pull*
Weighted Dips*
Weighted or Assisted Chinups*
Chest Supported Rows or Cable Rows or DB Rows 2 sets
Shoulder Press 2 sets
Pull- Sat
BB Shrug*
Incline Bench*
Pullups or Pullovers*
CGBP 2 sets
Face Pulls 2 sets
Yes, a lot of the filler was trimmed off, yes there is minimal legs, yes you are barely hitting arms, yes you are barely touching delts. Delts and arms will get plenty of action from what you are doing here, legs just need to maintain and no, none of those muscles will shrink. The Rack Pulls and Shrugs will add some meat to your upper back if you eat enough and the chest (small muscles really, compared to the size of the back) are getting hammered enough to grow. Remember, all those calories you are taking in are being diverted to the muscles you are working, so dropping volume to maintenance on legs and etc allows more to be sent to the back and chest, which is where you are increasing the volume.
Again, if you aren't clear on how to do the volume for the exercises I put * symbols next to, let me know. The idea is that on days you are feeling really good, you will max out the volume and on the days that you aren't as energetic, you will do less volume in order to allow for recovery. It is important that you judge this correctly on a daily basis so you aren't just doing the minimal work every day because doing more reps is hard, and you don't want to go balls out every time either if you aren't always as fresh when walking in to the gym.
Run this for 8 weeks, then at the end of the 8 weeks, spend two more weeks where you drop down to 3x3 on all the * lifts and push the loads higher. During this time, you will drop down to three days a week, drop legs completely and drop all other exercises, doing ONLY the ones with a * next to them. You can keep in the high rep metabolic work of dips and pulldowns if you wish but do nothing else. You can stretch the 3x3 out to 3 or 4 weeks if you want.
What about diet? You got that part covered? You'll want to be taking in plenty of calories, protein and carbs during this, and make sure to get the right fats.
mickc1965
Well-Known Member
Totentanz,
Just for clarification on your comment above, if you are working at say 60% of 1rm I have assumed that you are saying keep going past 12 reps until you get closer to failure at say 18-20 reps (RPE 8 or 9), is that correct?
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Flat out awesome routine totentanz. Will start the 12s at approximately 60% of 1 rm and work up to 70%. 8s will start at 70% and work to 80%. 5s will start with finishing weight on 8 rep max and work up to 5 rep max. 2 questions...
1. Should I ever hit complete failure in this routine or should I always stay a rep shy even when maxing out on 12s, 8s, and 5s.
2. Would it be better to split Thurs Sat upper body workouts into true Push/Pull on Thurs/Fri to enhance recovery? Just worried that I will not be able to recovery from higher volume upper body Thursday and then again Saturday. Separated into Push/Pull Thurs Fri would look like...
Thurs- Push
Incline bench*
Weighted Dips*
Shoulder press 2 sets
CGBP 2 sets
Fri- Pull
Rack pulls*
Weighted or assisted chin ups*
Chest supported rows or Cable rows or DB rows*
Pull ups or Pullovers*
BB shrug*
Face pulls 2 sets
Feel like this might assist in recovery as each upper bodypart will be hit twice a week with 3-4 days of rest in between.
Bottom-line, great routine. Exactly what I was looking for. Have used clustering/myoreps in the past so your rep ranges all make sense.
Calories will be up. About 300 above maintenance.
1. Should I ever hit complete failure in this routine or should I always stay a rep shy even when maxing out on 12s, 8s, and 5s.
2. Would it be better to split Thurs Sat upper body workouts into true Push/Pull on Thurs/Fri to enhance recovery? Just worried that I will not be able to recovery from higher volume upper body Thursday and then again Saturday. Separated into Push/Pull Thurs Fri would look like...
Thurs- Push
Incline bench*
Weighted Dips*
Shoulder press 2 sets
CGBP 2 sets
Fri- Pull
Rack pulls*
Weighted or assisted chin ups*
Chest supported rows or Cable rows or DB rows*
Pull ups or Pullovers*
BB shrug*
Face pulls 2 sets
Feel like this might assist in recovery as each upper bodypart will be hit twice a week with 3-4 days of rest in between.
Bottom-line, great routine. Exactly what I was looking for. Have used clustering/myoreps in the past so your rep ranges all make sense.
Calories will be up. About 300 above maintenance.
This is correct. As you assumed, staying away from failure but getting close is where you want to be, so an RPE of 8 or 9 is good. This will allow more complete activation of the muscle fibers during the lighter loads.
1. Stay away from failure. As Mick posted, an RPE of 8 or 9 is fine.
2. I don't really think you need to break it up into a push pull routine. I wouldn't want more than three of the big * lifts in a day. The way I planned this out and with performing the reps the way I recommended, recovery should not be an issue as long as you are eating enough. 300 over maintenance may not be sufficient. For a specialization cycle, I would do at least 500 over maintenance. You are looking for dramatic improvement in chest and back, which means you'll need a significant increase in calories during that time.
mickc1965
Well-Known Member
That is correct
leonardopm
Member
I also have a question about it...should I start with the bar almost touching my legs or should a give a step back and keep some distance from the bar?
Move directly up to the bar as in a deadlift or you will risk injury to your back. When in doubt, go to exrx.com
leonardopm
Member
Well, one last question. I'm currently working around 100-110kg on deadlifts...do I need to use a belt with this load? I'm 6' tall, 98 kg.
You only need to use a belt if you need to use a belt. I've deadlifted over 600 lbs without a belt, so clearly the load you are using is not the determining factor in whether you need a belt or not. Never used a belt, never needed one. Some people do need them. If you've never worn one before, you probably don't need one. If you have had a hernia or something like that, you might need one.
leonardopm
Member
TTanz, I don't have any issues on my spine. I 've used belts ocassionaly, many years ago, mostly by misinformation than anything else, since my loads weren't as high.
Anyway, your answer lead me to the understanding that a really don't need a belt.
Anyway, your answer lead me to the understanding that a really don't need a belt.
Belts are helpful for 1 rep maxes. However, belts actually hinder growth and strength gains in regular workout as do straps and other aides.
adpowah
Active Member
Totally agreeing with the above but I do chose to use a belt more often. The belt helps you create and maintain intra-abdominal pressure, in other words it makes your core stronger or easier to activate. I hear commonly in the gym to wear a belt to "protect your back" but the reality is it just helps your core remain more rigid so if you start out or allow yourself to be pulled into a bad position a belt isn't going to help you fix that. Recently I've started adding beltless work because the gap between my belted lifts and non-belted lifts is getting a little bigger than I prefer.