Getting into my 40s - Advice on training neeeded ;-)

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Ironkid

Member
I'm having lately issues with my training. Lower back is keeping me out of the gym, together with an epicondilytis (tennis elbow). I attribute these two injuries to the deadlift.

Is anyone in this situation? Any advice is greatly appreciated :-)

My current HST program is pretty standard: full body 3x per week.
I was thinking of increasing frequency and reduce volume training upper body on MWF, an lower body on Tu-Th.

Regarding deadlift what are your thoughts? Should I drop it? Just avoid the 5s and stay at 10s, drop altogether?
 
Without knowing why you have lower back pain it would be unwise to suggest how to train around it. It could be muscular, skeletal or disc related. My simple advice would be that if deadlifts worsen the conditions, do not do them. Or, perhaps, do deads with a trap bar to take the load off your lower back since you will not have to get your back into an extended position. And do NOT do hyper extensions. The safest thing to do is to have an MRI done by a competent doctor and find the root cause.

It seems doubtful that deads would be the cause of your tennis elbow unless the deads are so heavy that that they are causing wrist problems which will cause a flair up in the elbow. I have found that using simple hand grippers have eliminated all my wrist problems and most of my elbow problems. The rest of the elbow problems were eliminated by doing stretch band external and internal rotations to work the elbow and rotator cuff. However, after 50 years of lifting I expect to have some aching joints now and then. I take a chondroitin and glucosamine supplement daily to keep the arthritis at bay. It seems to work for me, my dogs and my horses. My wife, who thinks I am a vitamin freak, does not take it and is now starting to really suffer the consequences.

Overall, 3 times per week is not a bad place to be. However, I have found that, as I age, I actually respond better to lower total daily volume with higher 'effective reps' using Myo Reps or drop sets and higher frequency workouts. 5 total body workouts per week is my ideal but usually have to settle for 4 due to life getting in the way of my workouts.

Don't stall out!

Good luck!

O&G
 
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Thanks O&G,

Sorry it took me some time to reply, I've been busy at work. I've already been to the doctor and got an X-Ray (not MRI is needed). I can do daily work with no issues and pain is really only when I train, although I've been out of the gym for 3 weeks now and haven’t test my back.

Prognosis shows a thinning of the L5-S1 disc: nothing to worry about, according to both my doctor (which I don't trust much for this matter due to lack of sports-related experience) and my physiotherapist/osteopath, whose opinion I do value. They both agree there is no reverse on this, once it starts thinning, it’ll only get worse.

X-Ray doesn’t show sciatica or hernia, it seems an accumulation of work and likely inflammation. Treatment has been (still is), heat and electrotherapy, with some exercising to strengthen the lumbar area.

I know I’m getting old (sad realization though) and my concern is how to fit my training around my body as it gets old.

I’m almost fixed on the idea of dropping weight on the deadlift and keep it only during the 10s. What about squat? Should I also drop it and replace it by press on the 5s? Will this reduce the pressure on the lower back? The longer I can stop/delay my vertebrae disc thinning the better, for me weight lifting should improve life quality, not the opposite. So this is my plan:
• Mo-We-Fr: upper body
• Tu-Th: lower body

I’m not really looking to increase volume, I’ll keep it at the level of my 3x week full body workout but giving more time to my body to recover and decrease weekly volume on my lower body.

O&G, what do you think?

Disclaimer: I won’t hold you responsible for any advise ;-) !
 
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IK

Everyone's disc harden and thin as we age. Some end up with problems, others do not. Mine, at the same spot, got so thin it was bone-on-bone creating a lot of pain and sciatica. It ended up with a bad case of spinal stenosis which would have eventually put me in a wheelchair. I elected for surgery which involved implanting two rods in my lower back along with assorted hardware. I was walking upstairs in 3 days and lifting light weights within a week. A friend of mine who is head of Thoracic Surgery at Yale put a special team consisting of a Neurosurgeon, an Orthopedic surgeon and nuerophysiologist together for me and the results were fantastic.

Anyway, a couple of pieces of anecdotal experiences to share, bearing mind that I am jst a lay person with no medical training:

1. Keep hydrated to slow the disc drying process out.

2. Try a "Teeter Totter" or similar inversion type machine daily to relive the compression. 5 minutes per day can make a world of difference.

3. Take a joint supplement that contains at least 1500 mg of Glucosamine Sulfate and 1200 mg of Chondroitin Sulfate and also 300 mg of MSM. That will help repair and keep joints in good stead and stave off athritis. Hydraulonic acid is also good.

4. Lay off heavy weights in general and especially heavy squats and deads. I do only proper box squats, a hack squat machine or leg press and leg extensions for my quads. Use a trap bar for deadlifts so you don't over extend you back into a vulnerable position.

5. Anti inflammatory drugs and and Omega 3 EPA/DPA healthy fats may help also.

6. Make sure your bone density is above average and supplement with calcium until it is. If you do need surgery in the future, you need a solid base to begin with.

7. Don't overdue it with lots of bench presses without a corresponding number of pull exercises or you will end up with shoulders that pull you forward putting more pressure on your lower back. Everything should be somewhat proportional but you don't have to go overboard counting every push and pull rep either.

Hopefully you will get back to normal or close to it and not have to have any surgery, even if it is 30 years out.

Best of luck,

O&G
 
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Thanks O&G, very good advice and I'll sure follow it.
I'm still thinking of splitting my classic 3 day routine, would you better recommend an upper/lower or push/pull split?
 
You may want to pick up the book Supple Leopard by Kelly Starett. He goes over a lot of body mechanics and how to perform the lifts properly for long term sustainability. I've reworked my squat and bench technique and my joint health has greatly improved. There are some free samples online that will help give you a sense if it is something you are interested in.
http://www.allthingsgym.com/50-page-sample-of-kelly-starretts-book-becoming-a-supple-leopard/ and dowload the pdf
 
Ironkid said:
I'm still thinking of splitting my classic 3 day routine, would you better recommend an upper/lower or push/pull split?
Click to expand...

Splits are useful if you have a large volume of exercise sets and cannot fit into your workout time. Personally, I prefer higher frequency rather than higher volume. Whatever works for you and fits into your life's schedule is the one you should use. It really makes no big difference if a split is U/L or P/P.
 
Try to do weight progression in back extensions (aka hyperextensions) @15-20 reps per set 3 times per week as a finishing exercise. The increased blood flow can help your tendons heal up faster.
 
Hyperextensions are the absolute worst exercise one can perform for an already compromised lower back. They may be OK for a young healthy back but it is still taking a risk if you have any potential future problems, even if they do not show up now. Also, never add any twisting motion to a hyperextension along any plane of the exercise. Twisting under load practically guarantees future back problems.
 
I personally do nothing directly for my lower back now but work the abs to help stabilize it, do a lot of lat work (neutral grip chins with your knees raised is great) and do a lot of swimming when I can. You can start again with light deads but I would let the back inflammation heal first.
 
Old and Grey said:
Hyperextensions are the absolute worst exercise one can perform for an already compromised lower back. They may be OK for a young healthy back but it is still taking a risk if you have any potential future problems, even if they do not show up now. Also, never add any twisting motion to a hyperextension along any plane of the exercise. Twisting under load practically guarantees future back problems.
Click to expand...

O&G, it's strange that you think so. FWIW, Bryan also comments on treating sore elbows in the HST FAQ:
If necessary, drop all direct triceps work until next cycle. Let your elbow heal up and start the
next cycle VERY light on triceps and try to do as much burning sets as possible during the 15's
and 10s.
After SD, take only the EZ bar and rep out 30 or 40 reps of skullcrushers/lying triceps
extensions, and call it a day. Next time in, put on only the collars and do it just the same way.
Nice and slow until either it burns too bad or all the blood runs out of your arms and they begin
to go numb.
Next time in put on 2 1/2 lbs plates and rep them out again. What will happen is you will be
able to rehabilitate your elbows. If I can do it, so can you.
Click to expand...

I'm really failing to see how lower back would differ from elbow joints in the way you should be treating inflammation, as far as pain goes - just do a couple of burning sets. Higher rep hyperextensions may simply speed up the healing process, but it may still take a few months for the unwanted sensation to completely go away.
 
HST, he elbow problem Bryan referred to was a temporary inflammation condition. IK's condition is permanent physical deformity (disc thinning) and his disc will deteriorate further in the future. The temporary side effect of inflammation will heal with time and, perhaps, anti inflammatory drugs. When that temporary condition has healed sufficiently he can then continue on light deads. That is very similar advice as to what Bryan gave for the temporary elbow situation.

The lower back muscles are susceptible to injury during normal activities and weight training because as the body ages, the back loses flexibility and muscle elasticity. In the case of IK, he has a compressed disc at S1-L5. Hyperextensions are the worst thing he could due in the gym to aggravate the condition. Even not going beyond parallel and effectively eliminating the "hyper" portion of the exercise, may cause irreparable harm because he will be compressing that disc further.

However, HST, knowing from the past about how your mind can never be changed and the fact that I do not want to get into a wasted rounds of postings with you as many have been sucked in to in the past, this is my last post on this topic. This is my opinion based on my experience and consultations with many back surgeons, neurologists, physical therapists, etc. A simple search of the web will also confirm it although I dare say that you can probably find a site or two, probably a bro-bodybuilding site, that will say the opposite. If you want to do hyperextensions yourself when you have a permanent back problem, you have my blessing.



IK, make sure you incorporate appropriate stretching of the back and hams on a regular basis as that will relieve some of the pressure. BTW, I have gone from 5'10" at age 17 to a current 5'7-1/2" after my last surgery. The good news is I save a bit on groceries. :)
 
O&G, you may want to read up on Valentin Dikul, a circus athlete & strongman, who injured his back very badly back when he was 15, and was confined to a wheelchair, and doctors only shook their heads and didn't think he'd ever be able to walk again. Despite that he slowly rehabbed himself through exercise back to not only walking, but squatting with giant loads. So we shouldn't underestimate the role of progressive overload. Leg extensions are also an integral part of knee rehab in medical environment.

Wikipedia entry's google translation:
http://translate.google.com/transla...0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87&edit-text=
 
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Dikul is a fraud, a circus performer, much akin to "pro wrestlers" in the US. Coach Rip's forum had a thread where his videos were shown to be totally fake from folks that do genuinely lift big loads.

Not withstanding, severe trauma can be overcome in time, but do not use a quack for supporting data.
 
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