Going to failure?

p0fell0w

New Member
I seen it somewhere on here that on the last workout of your rep block (max) that you are supposed to go to failure...is that true or if i can do more reps with my max weight do i just stop at the giving rep

so if i bench 225 x 5 for my 5 rep max do i stop there or keep going to failure?
 
i use to go to failure at the end of each mini-cycle. however a shoulder injury has persuaded me not to do so anymore.

be careful w/ going to failure, as hst frequency can be brutal over time.
 
The whole point of not going to failure often (or at all) during your cycle is that you constantly allow your CNS to recover from the volume of work you have done in time for your next workout. If you are mid-cycle then you really don't want to be killing yourself trying to get an extra rep here and there.

If you want to go to failure to see how many reps you can do with a given weight, do it at the end of your cycle before you SD. That way your CNS can have plenty of time to recover after you have caned it.
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During the post 5s you can continue to increment the load until you find your new 5RM for a given exercise (as your strength will no doubt have increased by then). Once you have your new 5RM for any exercise, you could keep incrementing the load and do negs (or cluster reps) or you could stick with your new 5RM and do that for a few weeks.

I always tend to stop on the rep where my form starts to suffer. I know that the next rep will be unlikely to succeed. That way I can do another set after a minute or so of rest. If I try for that extra rep, and even if I succeed, I then find I am completely shot for any subsequent sets.

In the past I always trained to failure whenever possible but I have made my best gains avoiding it most of the time! I used to look at folks in the gym who were training as I do now and think they were wimping out. Well, when I found HST I got to eat a big slice of humble pie and now I am so glad I did.
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Failure has its place in strength training but it's not necessary for decent size gains if you use HST principles. It's not totally taboo though. Just avoid it if possible until near the end of your cycle.
 
Regarding Failure....
How is failure defined.
1) Is is cumulative with in a given exercise (ie. Benching to failure will drain only the CNS related to that movement).
2) Is it cumulative in that it affects the entire CNS (Benching to failure will drain the entire CNS & other unrelated muscles will suffer... ex: squats suffer too).

Then is the CNS drained at the 1) brain, 2) nerve paths to the muscles from the brain. 3) the ability for the nerves in the muscles to active the muscle fibers?

Maybe a good question for Dan the Man
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<div>
(Omega_man @ Jun. 13 2006,20:29)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Regarding Failure....
How is failure defined.</div>
OM,
This is the question, there is a difference between going to failure as defined as,

I stop when my rep speed slows more than my rep speed for my first contraction

or

I stop when my form begins to change because of fatigue

or

I only stop after my testicle has popped out my a-hole and goes bouncing across the gym floor as a bloody, slippery mass leaving little blood splatches along the floor, seriously freaking all the ladies out as they run screaming out the door, causing them to have recurring nightmares and seek professional therapy. (Man that would make a cool horror flick scene
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)

As far as the rest........it depends
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hah, i like the last 3rd form of failure description! I use to lift like that (close to it anyway). I now use #2, which do you recommend?


I am curious about Omega CNS question. Can anyone shed any light on that?
 
I should have worded it more like:
Regarding CNS fatigue....
How is CNS fatigue defined as related to &quot;strength loss&quot;.
We know to stay away from failure, but in what way does its affect relate to the body?
1) Is it cumulative with in a given exercise?
(ie. Benching to failure will drain only the CNS related to that movement).
2) Is it cumulative in that it affects the entire CNS? (Benching to failure will drain the entire CNS &amp; other unrelated muscles will suffer... ex: squats suffer too).

Then is the CNS drained at the 1) brain, 2) nerve paths to the muscles from the brain. 3) the ability for the nerves in the muscles to active the muscle fibers?

Omega
 
Ok

I usually recommend this but only on the last rep of the last set in a minicyle and I would define failure as &quot;I stop when my form begins to change because of fatigue&quot;.

Postulate No.2 re:Dan et al
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I think going to failure (serious muscle failure as in postulate No. 3
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) then the CNS might n ot recover sufficiently to allow further constructive training!

Omega - I think No. 3 would be the one should one go at it like Mike Mentzer recommended.
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<div>
(Omega_man @ Jun. 14 2006,19:04)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">How is CNS fatigue defined as related to &quot;strength loss&quot;.

We know to stay away from failure, but in what way does its affect relate to the body?
1) Is it cumulative with in a given exercise?
(ie. Benching to failure will drain only the CNS related to that movement).
2) Is it cumulative in that it affects the entire CNS? (Benching to failure will drain the entire CNS &amp; other unrelated muscles will suffer... ex: squats suffer too).

Then is the CNS drained at the 1) brain, 2) nerve paths to the muscles from the brain. 3) the ability for the nerves in the muscles to active the muscle fibers?

Omega</div>
First there is no way I can answer this fully as 1. It would take a lot of typing and 2. Even though I understand the principles of it I hate studying neurology and therefore I haven't.

Some defintions that Gandevia used in his outstanding look at Central Fatigue.

Central fatigue-A progressive reduction in voluntary activation of muscle during exercise.

Muscle fatigue- Any exercise-induced reduction in the ability of a muscle to generate force or power; it has peripheral and central causes.

Peripheral fatigue- Fatigue produced by changes at or distal to the neuromuscular junction.

Supraspinal fatigue- Fatigue produced by failure to generate output from the motor cortex; a subset of central fatigue.

Task failure- Cessation of a bout of exercise. This may be accompanied by peripheral fatigue, central fatigue, or both.

In most cases the peripheral mechanisms is what causes localized fatigue but continued peripheral fatigue can lead to more systemic effects. Such that your 2nd question may be representative of what is occuring.
So yes to both.

CNS is the entire system and although I don't think that the brain actually gets drained it does recieve a multiple of signals from the various body structures (Golgi, Spindles, Afferants, hormonal, chemcial and so on) which then the brains sends signals back to control what and how much the body can be taxed, a constant state of signalling through feedback and forward loops, so in essence it's all of it combined.

Think of it this way, your body is a constant running engine, and like any engine, periodic and brief increased speed or production doesn't necessarily hamper overall performance but a continue heightened production or speed thereof eventually wears the engine down and either must be stopped before damage occurs or it stops on it's own accord when it breaks. Since our body doesn't want ot break as it takes so much more energy to repair itself it has many controls built in to prevent it from breaking, reduced neural activation and drive during fatigue is one of these, along with all the other symptoms of fatigue.

Secondly it's not that we should avoid failure as with anything we do, working to failure get's us better at working to failure but it also hampers our ability to do the other things that have shown to be positively correlated to growth so it's a trade off, do you want to increase your time to failure or do you want to progressively and consistently apply a load to cause muscle growth?
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">In most cases the peripheral mechanisms is what causes localized fatigue but continued peripheral fatigue can lead to more systemic effects.</div>
Dan has spoken, so probably I cannot say much.
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However, this agrees with my own observations. Continue pushing yourself for some time and you're bound to lose some strength. I believe that, in the long run, heavy exercise can affect, say, your bench, even if you do not &quot;overtrain&quot; your chest.
 
Great post Dan. I will read it a few times and see how much I can retain and explain to my mate tomorrow. That'll be precious little then!
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(Dan Moore @ Jun. 15 2006,08:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Secondly it's not that we should avoid failure as with anything we do, working to failure get's us better at working to failure but it also hampers our ability to do the other things that have shown to be positively correlated to growth so it's a trade off, do you want to increase your time to failure or do you want to progressively and consistently apply a load to cause muscle growth?</div>
This really sums it all up. Training to &quot;failure&quot; as a concept has often confused people interested in HST. Not because they don't know what it is, but because they haven't quite grasped how HST treats/accomodates fatigue.

There is nothing wrong with training to failure, UNLESS it prevents you from training in a hypertorphy-SPECIFIC fashion.

Some people can take a set to failure and still have juice left in the tank after a short rest. Not only that, but they can do this frequently throughout the week.

Others cannot do this so easily. Sometimes it has to do with conditioning. Other times it has to do with strength (stronger you are, faster you fatigue). Women are better at it than men. The list goes on...
 
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(Bryan Haycock @ Jun. 16 2006,19:59)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Dan Moore @ Jun. 15 2006,08:12)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Secondly it's not that we should avoid failure as with anything we do, working to failure get's us better at working to failure but it also hampers our ability to do the other things that have shown to be positively correlated to growth so it's a trade off, do you want to increase your time to failure or do you want to progressively and consistently apply a load to cause muscle growth?</div>
This really sums it all up. Training to &quot;failure&quot; as a concept has often confused people interested in HST. Not because they don't know what it is, but because they haven't quite grasped how HST treats/accomodates fatigue.

There is nothing wrong with training to failure, UNLESS it prevents you from training in a hypertorphy-SPECIFIC fashion.

Some people can take a set to failure and still have juice left in the tank after a short rest. Not only that, but they can do this frequently throughout the week.

Others cannot do this so easily. Sometimes it has to do with conditioning. Other times it has to do with strength (stronger you are, faster you fatigue). Women are better at it than men. The list goes on...</div>
nice...my post got the main main to post
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i love hst !!!!
 
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