HIGH VOLUME/multiple sets

Excellent post.  Right to the point.  I recently dropped volume slightly in my new HSt cycle for this very reason.  I want to keep reps constant throughout the cycle while increasing the load every workout.

Slapz is right, do the most volume that you can, BUT NOT TO THE POINT WHERE YOU CAN'T DO PROGRESSIVE LOADING.  I may even drop the volume further if I need to , because progressive loading is the most important principle, and I don't want to confuse people to think that volume is more important, because it is not.

I am willing to sacrifice some volume if it means keeping the progressive loading in my cycle.  So I am not saying high volume is number one, just saying that do the most volume you can while still doing decent frequency and progressive load.
 
Sci

Indeed...indeed, I had toi drop from 30 to 25 and cluster to get ther, that was the most I could do while still progressing the weight, ok I slowed the weight too by progressing 5% all round
 
I am willing to sacrifice some volume if it means keeping the progressive loading in my cycle. So I am not saying high volume is number one, just saying that do the most volume you can while still doing decent frequency and progressive load.

This is exactly what Bryan has been saying for ages
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Short Hijack: on page two, in the quote from Bryan, he talks about twice a day sessions (A/B) being used for time or energy limitations, but it's not entirely clear what he's saying there to me. Anyone know where to find this info? (my lady is on my butt about my 'pooter time lately)
I'm principally wondering about loading a muscle twice a day when fatigued from other things, say like doing a bench in the morning for 20 reps and db bench in the evening for 20, or something like that. I never thought about tearing muscle fibres twice in a day...if that works, it could be sort of an easy road to hypertrophy, being less volume/time per session, just spread out.
I just never saw anything on that anywhere else that I can remember.
 
I would think with all the experienced lifters discussing things like volume & load could get some kind of testing done yourselves. I think there are enough on this board to conduct some sort of experiment. Say 5 do one type of routine for 6 weeks and 5 do another and post results. I know they would not be controlled like in a lab but it could be interesting. I would be willing but I am new to this whole thing. Maybe I am off the chart on this and if so I do appologize.

Just a thought

John
 
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(quadancer @ Jun. 18 2007,07:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Short Hijack: on page two, in the quote from Bryan, he talks about twice a day sessions (A/B) being used for time or energy limitations, but it's not entirely clear what he's saying there to me. Anyone know where to find this info? (my lady is on my butt about my 'pooter time lately)
I'm principally wondering about loading a muscle twice a day when fatigued from other things, say like doing a bench in the morning for 20 reps and db bench in the evening for 20, or something like that. I never thought about tearing muscle fibres twice in a day...if that works, it could be sort of an easy road to hypertrophy, being less volume/time per session, just spread out.
I just never saw anything on that anywhere else that I can remember.</div>
Yup, I had been doing the am/pm splits based on Bryan's recommendations in the HST book (hoping to drop some fat!). I had been loading some muscles both morning and evening.

However, I recently read on Dan Moore's site that loading a muscle after 24 or 48 hours is significantly better than loading again after only 8. (Sorry, I have not been able to locate that post again -- it had several helpful graphs in it).
Wait -- here it is:
http://hypertrophy-research.com/phpBB1/viewtopic.php?t=202

Anyhow, based on Dan's information, I intend to adjust my am/pm splits on my next cycle such that I do not stress the same muscle groups twice in the same day (thus -- am: lower body, pm: upper body).
 
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(quadancer @ Jun. 18 2007,07:11)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I never thought about tearing muscle fibres twice in a day...if that works, it could be sort of an easy road to hypertrophy.</div>
Ah, but there is no easy road...or free lunch...or a gimme putt
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Training 2x/day can be very effective, but given your schedule, I think it would be suicidal. Imagine feeling grossly overtrained after only a week...sleepless nights, crankiness, general malaise. If you permanently get a desk-type job, I think it'd work for you, tho...
 
My HST cycle has gone to sh*t...so what I am doing through previous discussion with Scientific muscle is the following for the next 6 weeks.

I am currently eating at about maintenance and I have lost about 5 pounds...but its summertime and hot so my appetite sucks right now. I am going to do the following for the next 6 to 8 weeks then SD and get back on schedule with a serious routine and bulk.

I will call this routine HST &quot;Volume Training&quot;...but its fun so far!

Monday / Wednesday / Friday Split

Hammerstrength wide grip chest 5 sets of 10 reps
Machine Rows 5 sets of 10 reps
Shoulder Press 2 sets of lateral raise
Leg Press 3 sets of 15 reps very short rest periods
Arm work thrown in at the end if I feel up to it.

Its basically a Frat boy Beach muscle workout
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could it simply be that the added volume/reps increased glycogen stores? I know I fluctuate heavily in size due to glycogen.
 
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(Joe.Muscle @ Jun. 18 2007,20:22)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">My HST cycle has gone to sh*t...so what I am doing through previous discussion with Scientific muscle is the following for the next 6 weeks.

I am currently eating at about maintenance and I have lost about 5 pounds...but its summertime and hot so my appetite sucks right now. I am going to do the following for the next 6 to 8 weeks then SD and get back on schedule with a serious routine and bulk.

I will call this routine HST &quot;Volume Training&quot;...but its fun so far!

Monday / Wednesday / Friday Split

Hammerstrength wide grip chest 5 sets of 10 reps
Machine Rows 5 sets of 10 reps
Shoulder Press 2 sets of lateral raise
Leg Press 3 sets of 15 reps very short rest periods
Arm work thrown in at the end if I feel up to it.

Its basically a Frat boy Beach muscle workout
laugh.gif
</div>
Let us know how it goes. I am currently going the other way and doing low volume/high-intensity SST. (about 3 heavy sets across of 4-8 reps) The workouts are killer, strength should go up. High-intensity tends to burn me out, so I will switch to a more hypertrophy oriented routine in awhile.
I still think higher volume is important to trained individuals doing HST. Joe Muscle has been training for over a decade so 5 sets is nothing for him!
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(scientific muscle @ Apr. 12 2007,20:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Excellent post.  Right to the point.  I recently dropped volume slightly in my new HSt cycle for this very reason.  I want to keep reps constant throughout the cycle while increasing the load every workout.

Slapz is right, do the most volume that you can, BUT NOT TO THE POINT WHERE YOU CAN'T DO PROGRESSIVE LOADING.  I may even drop the volume further if I need to , because progressive loading is the most important principle, and I don't want to confuse people to think that volume is more important, because it is not.

I am willing to sacrifice some volume if it means keeping the progressive loading in my cycle.  So I am not saying high volume is number one, just saying that do the most volume you can while still doing decent frequency and progressive load.</div>
i would say do as much volume as you can,when it starts to get difficult or you reach a platue,drop the sets and try to increase the weight,that way you do one cycle but the beggining and middle are high volume the end is low volume so you get the advantage of both.
ie
15s 2sets
10s 3sets
5s 6sets
5s 5sets
5s 4sets
5s 3sets
you could even cluster or max-stim.
 
Quad

THis may be waht you're looking for (source:FAQ-E-book)

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">23.4. More on AM/PM splits

Ok, here are a few points to think about.

1) Increasing volume isn't a bad thing. The only time it is contraindicated is when you can't handle any more volume because the current weight loads are sufficiently heavy and are causing sufficient trauma to the tissues with minimal volume and adequate frequency.

There is a false notion that HST is about “low volume”. This notion arose from people erroneously stereotyping HST as a previously existing “muscle beach” method used by guys in “the good old’ days”.

HST prescribes that volume be more evenly distributed over time to create a more constant environment and thus and more consistent stimulus for muscle growth. The volume of training in HST does not differ significantly from previous programs.

2) The only physiological benefit to training twice per day is to increase the amount of loading the muscle is getting. So, if I were to go from once per day training to twice per day training, and not increase the volume, I would not be deriving any particular anabolic benefit from splitting up my workouts into two shorter sessions.

You may however benefit from doing this in other ways such as accommodating a tight schedule or getting the most out of limited energy levels.

3) It is ok to either repeat the previous workout, or to use a different group of exercises, as long as the second set of exercises is comparable in effectiveness to the first group. In other words, you can have Workout A and Workout B and simply alternate between them, using workout A in the morning and Workout B in the evening or vice versa.

Different exercises for the same muscle group usually only differ in the number of muscle groups involved, and the degree of stretch experienced by each muscle group during the movement. In the end, when things get really heavy, all primary movers will be activated 100% regardless of the stance, or foot placement, or hand position, etc.

So for example, wide stance squats will hit just as much muscle as shoulder width squats. All that differs is the amount of stretch involved for the inner thigh (adductors).

However, when a maximal squat is attempted with either stance, all muscle will be equally activated. This can be better understood by considering each joint separately. It is either extending or flexing…regardless of body position.

The point of all this is that you can pick two different compound exercises for each major muscle group, squat/press for legs, high-/mid-pull for back, incline/dip for chest. Then do whatever you want for bis, tris, delts, calves, and abs. The reason you can do whatever you want for the smaller muscle groups if because of the limited natural of their function on a single joint.

Another option is to split the body into two halves (e.g. upper/lower or push/pull) and do half in the AM and the other half in the PM. This will allow more time (i.e. sets) to be done per muscle group during a single workout. You can either do more sets per exercise, or simply add exercises and keep the sets per exercise the same.

Now we haven’t touched on the “consequences” of two-a-day training. Briefly, you will be more tired and you will burn more calories. This means that two-a-days will be easier using lighter weight loads such as the 15s, or the first week of any rep range.

It also means you will be more likely to experience a caloric deficit. This means you may need to up your carbs while doing two-a-days.

Just as important to realize is that you will be more likely to experience “burn out”. Your motivation to train can really take a hit after several weeks of two-a-days. Keep this in mind! This does not mean that your muscles are experiencing the same mental boredom or fatigue, it simply means that doing something relatively difficult and tiresome twice as often makes you get tired of doing it twice as fast.

23.5. Recommendations on AM/PM split during your HST cycle

You won't last long doubling the volume just because you are using am/pm splits.Here is what I suggest:

1) When using 15s: Go ahead a repeat the am workout in the same day pm workout. Especially when things are very light (1st week of 15s).

2) When using 10s: First week of 10s, assuming some zig-zag, go ahead and repeat the am workout in the pm. During the second week of 10s, split the body up into two halves, either push/pull or upper body/lower body. This will allow more sets for each exercise because you are only training half the body at a time.

3) When using 5s: Once again, if you are getting a pretty good zig-zag in weight loads (which is just fine), go ahead and do 2 identical workouts, one in the morning and then once in the evening. When things get heavy however, split the body up again into two halves and train have the body in the morning and the remaining half in the evening.

NOTE: training twice per day significantly increases the number of calories you burn in a day. If you are trying to gain weight, take this into account and add additional calories.</div>

Sounds very much like the info you were looking for.
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(faz @ Jun. 19 2007,05:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">15s 2sets
10s 3sets
5s 6sets
5s 5sets
5s 4sets
5s 3sets</div>
Great idea, faz!
 
Fausto: it's close to what I'm talking about in example 2. I won't experience burnouts because I was just considering the times I don't work out due to lack of energy or time, considering that I can't do the whole workout, even though it's only four exersizes and some supplementary stuff.
I thought that if it was okay to load a muscle twice in a day (period between sleeps) I could do, say, bench in the morning, and overhead presses later - which would have some overlap on the pecs. The idea is principally to knock out half of the workout and finish later. In the same workout, overlap is just finish work on a muscle.

It said there was no anabolic advantage, but calorie deficit would occur. That's a plus on a cut I guess. Perhaps that's a way of cutting without EATING LESS!!!

(me like eat much)
 
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(faz @ Jun. 19 2007,05:01)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(scientific muscle @ Apr. 12 2007,20:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Excellent post.  Right to the point.  I recently dropped volume slightly in my new HSt cycle for this very reason.  I want to keep reps constant throughout the cycle while increasing the load every workout.

Slapz is right, do the most volume that you can, BUT NOT TO THE POINT WHERE YOU CAN'T DO PROGRESSIVE LOADING.  I may even drop the volume further if I need to , because progressive loading is the most important principle, and I don't want to confuse people to think that volume is more important, because it is not.

I am willing to sacrifice some volume if it means keeping the progressive loading in my cycle.  So I am not saying high volume is number one, just saying that do the most volume you can while still doing decent frequency and progressive load.</div>
i would say do as much volume as you can,when it starts to get difficult or you reach a platue,drop the sets and try to increase the weight,that way you do one cycle but the beggining and middle are high volume the end is low volume so you get the advantage of both.
ie
15s 2sets
10s 3sets
5s 6sets
5s 5sets
5s 4sets
5s 3sets
you could even cluster or max-stim.</div>
If you have to do 5 sets on 5's, you cant do your practice in less than 90 minutes. On my opinion its better to do 3 sets on 5 and finnish your practice in less than 90 minutes.
And joe, Why you give each muscle different volume?
 
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