Honest feedback on HST

[BrownsMan]

I have been lifting for 35 years, so I am no novice. I have performed 3 cycles of HST and I have some thoughts to share.
1) HST is a basically good workout. I think the scientific fundamentals are sound.
2) If you are a beginner, you should follow HST as described. That said, as an experienced lifter, I DO NOT like the 2-2-4 2 week cycles for the routine. I find much more sucess in listening to my body, and performing cycles of 15, 10 and 6 reps as my body reacts, and tells me to go to lower reps. I may gain for four weeks at 10 reps or 6 weeks at 6 reps, and I do not find it productive to change just because the routine proscribes it. I move to lower reps when my body says to.I also find the rest period to be too long. Similarly, my body does not need a rest every 8 weeks. I need to rest when my body says to, and that rest very rarely lasts more than a week.

I am absolutely not being critical of HST or it's proponents. I would be interested in reading how you guys think about my thoughts...Brownsman

 

[Lol]

Hey Brownsman, good to read your thoughts. Just to clarify: HST is not a workout/routine per se but a few principles that you can apply in your training if hypertrophy is your goal (and which will inevitably lead to some strength gains too).

The way the principles can be applied, in simplest form, is seen in the basic HST program outlined here (which you have probably already read): http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html

Having an understanding of why and how your body builds muscle can help you to create a lifting program that works well for you and will help you to see why certain programs work better than others. Folks new to lifting have to start somewhere and so the basic template fulfils their need while they learn about their own likes & dislikes, physiology etc. For more experienced lifters like yourself, it makes good sense to work with what you know but to make sure you are applying the HST principles along the way (again, if hypertrophy is your goal). Seems like this is what you have decided after a few vanilla cycles.

With 35 years of training under your belt, I would be very interested to hear what your approach is to gauging progress; do you still feel that training is productive and progressive or are you now aiming to maintain what strength and size you have gained over the years?

 

[faz]

<div>
(BrownsMan @ May 13 2009,12:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I have been lifting for 35 years, so I am no novice. I have performed 3 cycles of HST and I have some thoughts to share.
1) HST is a basically good workout. I think the scientific fundamentals are sound.
2) If you are a beginner, you should follow HST as described. That said, as an experienced lifter, I DO NOT like the 2-2-4 2 week cycles for the routine. I find much more sucess in listening to my body, and performing cycles of 15, 10 and 6 reps as my body reacts, and tells me to go to lower reps. I may gain for four weeks at 10 reps or 6 weeks at 6 reps, and I do not find it productive to change just because the routine proscribes it. I move to lower reps when my body says to.I also find the rest period to be too long.  Similarly, my body does not need a rest every 8 weeks. I need to rest when my body says to, and that rest very rarely lasts more than a week.

I am absolutely not being critical of HST or it's proponents. I would be interested in reading how you guys think about my thoughts...Brownsman</div>
as lol says you dont have to stick to 2-2-4-2 thats just a eg, you could do 3-3-3 or 3-4-4 etc etc just workout your maxes and and draw out the workout even more.

 

[Totentanz]

As has already been said, the basic HST template is just one way to execute the principles and is meant as a 'one size fits all' type of routine. You don't have to do it like that. Many of us don't. We have a wide range of applications of HST on this site, just check out some of the logs.

 

[adb1x1]

Having been at this for quite a while too (20 years), I think it's pretty clear that some changes have to be made as time goes on.

 HST priciples can be applied, no matter what the routine might eventually look like.

 I've basically followed the 2-2-4-2 framework since I started HST a few years ago (with a few cycles leaving out the 15's, but I later added them back because going right into the 10's was a bit of a shock. Seems doing at least a week of 15's moderates that shock).

 However, the last year or so, I've seen a great deal of excessive inflamation. A couple of times I've had to stop the 5's early and recently it was so bad I had to stop after the 2nd week of the 10's.

 I made some minor changes to the routine that helped for a while. but as the weight I'm handling has increased, the problem returns.

 I am therefore forced to change the routine even more, since the inflamation is outpacing my body's ability to handle it.

 So I will be experimenting a bit with volume reduction and adjustment of the rep ranges.

 I suspect there are others here who are having similar issues. Might be a good topic to start. Track the positives/negatives of changes made.

 Basically, I suspect as the muscles become more and more 'resistant', requiring greater loads to create an adaption evironment, any routine will have to be adjusted. It doesn't change the accuracy of the principles, just modification of the application.

 

[Fausto]

Brownsman

There's rather little one can add to what the guys already said, but if I can emphasize at all, I find that like adb 1x1 that inflamation of the joints occurs when pushing heavily for extended periods.

However we're all different, but HST is a very adaptable set of guidelines however mjuch you decide to extend it.

Tot's right, there is a miriad of workout programs in here. I still prech the simplest are the best, but there is a wide variety of likes and dislikes so, we adapt and after learning the basics...create our very own HST program!

Cheers

 

[Old and Grey]

I tend to agree with BrownsMan (albeit not in football). I've been lifting 50 years as of this year with very few significant breaks other than when Uncle Sam called. I did the usual 2,2,2,2 routines for a couple of years and i would recommend any newbie to HST to go with the published routines. However, now I find better results doing each rep range once per week. For example, if I were doing rep ranges of 15, 10 and 5, I would do 15's on M, 10's on W and 5's on F, assuming a 3 day workout. I progress with weight within each rep range each week. When I hit my maxes, usually by about week 5 or so, I will continue until I feel the need for an SD. Then I usually take 2 weeks off. Seems to work pretty good on these old bones.

 

[RUSS]

I've had success with old and greys style but I've always done it in reverse order (heavy-mon, medium-weds, light-fri) , and I'd imagine the results are comparable -although it's possible that fiber type predominance may dictate which order feels more natural to an individual lifter (this is just an educated guess).

Mega dosing fish oil has done everything that Poliquin claimed it would for joint issues , although I'm keeping a close eye on any immune system weakening as I've read that this may happen at higher doses- so far so good though and amazing for the joints.

 

[Fausto]

Russ

Not that I have huge joint issues but now and then...care to expand on megadoses?

 

[Lol]

Hey Fausto, try 30-45g a day! Sounds a lot but if you take it by the tablespoonful rather than the capsule you can get enough in only three measures. Lots of folks have had good results (joint pain reduction and softer skin!) from these doses. I'm thinking about ordering a ton of fish oil and seeing how it goes for a few months. Glad Russ has tried it first. I am now spurred on to giving it a shot. If it helps fix my shoulder I'll be a happy bunny.

 

[adb1x1]

I have found the fish oil to help alot. I take 10, 1000 mg capsules at the moment.

Might up that some.

The inflamation I have is actually in the muscle/connective tissue rather than the joints.

I did just find out my testosterone is on the very low side of normal (that range is so wide, that statement is vague at best), so I'm wondering if that might not be causing me not to recover as well. Guess we'll see!

And regarding fish oil. I found out the hard way, not all fish oil supplements are the same

I went to a different brand because the label said 2400mg per capsule, (I take it to help bring triclycerides down too). The previous brand brought the level down to 390 (still high, but pretty good for me), but after changing to the other brand the level went to 1400. Same dosage, just not as many individual capsules.

Something to be aware of. You might not be getting what a label would lead you to believe.

 

[RUSS]

I'm taking 10-12 1200mg enteric coated capsules a day - I just pop 2 every time I'm in the fridge (my supplements are on top of my fridge) which works out to 5-6 times a day.

I've always been a low-rep / high-set addict and had pretty much resigned myself to the theory that having constant &quot;little&quot; joint irritations was the price one pays for forcing an aging body to spend so much time in the 85+%1RM range .


Fish oil supplementation has made joint pain entirely disappear and the skin softening/healthy glow side effect is true also.

 

[Lol]

Russ, interesting that you are getting noticeable results from just 10-12 grams a day. What's your particular favourite type of oil? Cod liver, salmon or the stuff made from krill juice?

 

[faz]

try glucosamine as well.

 

[Franko]

I had some issues while taking about 10g of fish oil.  I was bruising very easily.  I was getting bad bruising on my shoulders from the bar during squats and the ones from my bjj classes were nasty!

I have lowered my dose to 6g which has reduced the bruising issue, but I'm not sure that's enough to reap much benefit.

Also, not sure if it's in my head or not, but I swear I've noticed some mood enhancement from supplementing with fish oil.  I've read some studies about it being used for depression.

EDIT: Regarding brands, Carlson's liquid fish oil is the way to go. It just tastes like lemon oil and I've had no issues with fish burps.

 

[Lol]

Thanks Franko. I've seen the Carlson's liquid fish oil. It's a bit on the expensive side for high doses (ie. 10+g/day). One place does a discount on 5 or more bottles which takes the daily cost down to about £0.70 (~$1). That's much better.

Interesting what you say about bruising; I wonder what's going on there? I've never bruised that easily - well, I don't get much to show for a nasty knock - whereas my wife goes black and blue from the slightest bump. I'll see if things change after upping the fish oil.

Faz: yeah, already use that; I take GS and CS.

(Apologies for taking this thread OT.)

 

[omega99]

<div>
(Old and Grey @ May 14 2009,6:56)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">However, now I find better results doing each rep range once per week. For example, if I were doing rep ranges of 15, 10 and 5, I would do 15's on M, 10's on W and 5's on F, assuming a 3 day workout. I progress with weight within each rep range each week. When I hit my maxes, usually by about week 5 or so, I will continue until I feel the need for an SD. Then I usually take 2 weeks off.  Seems to work pretty good on these old bones.</div>
How's it work for those old muscles?

  Are you still experiencing growth?

 

[Old and Grey]

Actually I started this method of hitting all the reps each week to help fight boredom that seems to hit me with the traditional HST routines.

Surprisingly though, I am experiencing nice growth in my weaker areas, quads and traps. My other areas are probably maxed out for my genetics unless I started massive doses of steroids. However, the underdeveloped areas are showing improvement cycle-to-cycle. However, I don't want to put on any more mass. I weigh 190 at 5'8&quot; on a small frame and don't want that Gaspari 'barrel-with-clothes-on-look.' Since my clothes are on most of my waking time, I go for the athletic look as opposed to 'wow, he's big' look on the beach. I will be posting my 65th birthday shots next year and you will see what I mean. The most frequent question I get is &quot;Were you a professional athelete.&quot; The second most frequent question is about arms.

 

[omega99]

<div>
(Old and Grey @ May 16 2009,12:29)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Surprisingly I am experiencing growth in my weaker areas, quads and traps. My other areas are probably maxed out for my genetics unless I started massive doses of steroids. However, the underdeveloped areas are showing improvement cycle to cycle. However, I don't want to put on any more mass. I weigh 190 at 5'8&quot; on a small frame and don't want that Gaspari 'barrel with clothes on look.' Since my clothes are on most of my waking time, I go for the athletic look as opposed to 'wow, he's big' look on the beach. I will be posting my 65th birthday shots next year and you will see what I mean.  

</div>
O&amp;G, always appreciate your comments on the board. I'm sure those pics will inspire us all. I'm also looking for some joint/tendon relief and the 15-10-5 per week routine just might be the fix. And I have pretty easy access to fish oil since I'm half owner of a pet food company  

 

[celc5]

I've done 6 routines of HST and find that most of my bodyparts can handle the volume and frequency. At one point, I got the dreaded elbow inflammation (I do have a history of traumatic elbow injury and extensive surgical repair).

My solution was to run HST for all pull, leg, and core movements on MWF. Then on saturdays, I'd simply do my push movements for chest, tris, and shoulders. I still utilized progressive load techniques for the push day, just with a drastically reduced volume that steadily improved my elbow health.

I'm sure you could apply this strategy to any particular problem areas.