How to extend the 5s?

[xxfunguy007xx2000]

my plan is 2 weeks of 10s and 6 weeks of 5s, since I am skipping 15s and I dont like negatives.

1st question- If I do do 6 weeks of 5s, do I do 2 weeks from min to max and repeat 3 times or do I extend my 5s by incrementing for constantly for 6 weeks


2nd question- I want to incorprate drop sets as well. I know you should do take of weight and go to failure on the last set of each exercise. But when you start with your min weight, do I still have to drop the weight, because I could probably do 15-20 reps by using minimum weight of the 5s


lastly- are negatives better than 5s or are they just as effective

thanks

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Use the same 2 week increment block, then use your 5RM for successive workouts, if you notice strength increases enough to be able to add some plates then go for it. If you notice no strength gains or worse, strength loss after a few workouts (3 or so) then I would SD, also if joints start giving you the screaming fits, SD.

 

[Bob Evans]

6 weeks of 5s could be a little tricky.  The idea is to keep increasing the load (progression)  with 10s, 5s, and negs  you have progression over 6 weeks.  6 weeks of 5s it will be difficult to keep progressing. NO! Do not do a two week cycle of 5s and then repeat it 3 times  If you did this you would not be progessing -- you would be droping back each micro cycle.   Be really carfull on "improving on HST  You have to realy understand the principals first  -- if you violate the principals then you are not doing HST.  
Are Negs better than 5s?  Yes and no.  Each micro cyle of HST should give you gains -- that is part of the "magic".  Different guys have seen their best gains durring different micro cycles -- 15s, 10s, 5s, negs.  Theoretically the negs is where you see the most gains because that is where you push the edge of the envelope.  I think vicious said 15s, 10s, and 5s  are just a pred for the punishment (and progress) in your negs.
If you insist on doing a 6 week cycle of 5s  the way to do it is to repeat a given wieght for 3 work outs to extend the 5s cycle.
so instead of doing 100lbs 105lbs 110lbs
you would do  100, 100, 100, --- 105,105,105,---110, 110 110,  and so on.
Hope this helps,

PS I don't disagree with dkm's approach. That is the other way to do it. Just don't go backwards.
Robert  

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Not disagreeing with Bob by any means but let me give you Bryan's take, just for clarification.

Quote[/b] ]From my experience, a guy can continue to make gains with a sufficiently heavy weight (5-8 RM) for around 4-6 weeks. That is why HST suggests that you stick with your 5s or negatives until gains stop. It may take some increases in volume during that period, but you can still make gains without increasing the weight. Then it’s obviously time to SD (Decondition the tissue again). So if you take 6 weeks to get to your 5RM, and you stick with your 5RM for another 4 weeks, that makes a good 10 week cycle.

There is no reason to start SD if you’ve got good growth momentum going. I do this myself when I feel healthy (no injuries, strains etc).

Quote[/b] ]Extending each two week block is a reasonable thing to do, particularly with the 10s and 5s. The 15s may not offer as much benefit. The overall benefit depends on how strong an individual is as well. For example, the stronger a person is, the more weight will be used to load the tissue. The more load that is used, the longer it will be effective at producing a growth stimulus. So, if you can move a lot of weight for ten reps, you certainly won't be wasting your time by using your 10RM a few more workouts before upping the load again.

Quote[/b] ]The end of an HST "cycle" is when you are no longer making any gains, either in size or strength. This doesn't happen until the 5s or the negatives.It usually takes anywhere from 2-4 weeks of working with your 5RM or more before you plateau.

 

[Bob Evans]

I am all for extending ones heavy micro cycle as long as possible. An extended and wonderfully painful negs cycle is what i attempt to do.

What worries me about funguys approach is not that he wants to extend his last cycle -- but rather he is cutting out 15s and negs -- so his second cycle is his last cycle. Not alot of progression there. -- could work -- but he would only be progressing for 2 weeks of 10s and his first 2 weeks of 5s. I would add 1 week of 15s and a neg cycle myself -- then do the negs as long as your strength holds up -----thats what I do

 

[mrh]

Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ Aug. 18 2005,12:28)]Not disagreeing with Bob by any means but let me give you Bryan's take, just for clarification.

Quote[/b] ]From my experience, a guy can continue to make gains with a sufficiently heavy weight (5-8 RM) for around 4-6 weeks. That is why HST suggests that you stick with your 5s or negatives until gains stop. It may take some increases in volume during that period, but you can still make gains without increasing the weight. Then it’s obviously time to SD (Decondition the tissue again). So if you take 6 weeks to get to your 5RM, and you stick with your 5RM for another 4 weeks, that makes a good 10 week cycle.
There is no reason to start SD if you’ve got good growth momentum going. I do this myself when I feel healthy (no injuries, strains etc).

Quote[/b] ]Extending each two week block is a reasonable thing to do, particularly with the 10s and 5s. The 15s may not offer as much benefit. The overall benefit depends on how strong an individual is as well. For example, the stronger a person is, the more weight will be used to load the tissue. The more load that is used, the longer it will be effective at producing a growth stimulus. So, if you can move a lot of weight for ten reps, you certainly won't be wasting your time by using your 10RM a few more workouts before upping the load again.

Quote[/b] ]The end of an HST "cycle" is when you are no longer making any gains, either in size or strength. This doesn't happen until the 5s or the negatives.It usually takes anywhere from 2-4 weeks of working with your 5RM or more before you plateau.

wow, that was clear as mud to me...

 sometimes Im a little slow. are you/bryan saying that you can keep the same weight throughout the, say 8 weeks (4 sets of 5) in other words, my first set of 5's is 100,110,120,130,140,150, the next 2 weeks(second set of 5's) I do 105,115,125,135,145,155 then the 3 rd set of 5's I might actually do 6 reps on 105,115,125,135,145,155 then the 4 th set of 5's I might actually do 7 reps of 105,115,125,135,145,155 ? then if the next set of 5's I try to do I cant go up in reps and my size doesn't change, then its time to SD?I hope this wasnt to confusing, cause I seem to be lost  

 

[robefc]

Hi everyone,

The only problem I have with everything that's been said so far is that it has been taken down to a situation of comparing 5s and negs, as if there is no other scope for progression beyond 5s.

I only do negs with dips but after I've reached my 5rm I carry on progressing for a couple more weeks...I may be able to add an increment because of strength gains (I usually end up doing 6 or 7 on my pre-calculated 5rm) and can always do a couple more increments by using between 1-4reps.

Would it not be possible to do 2 weeks at 5rm, 2 weeks with an added increment and 2 weeks with another added increment for most exercises? Clusttering can be used to get enough overall reps and to stave off going to failure, sure in the last 2 weeks you may be doing 1-2 rep sets and pretty much operating at failure but would that matter too much for only a week or two?

My other concerm mirrors what others have said regarding the 15s...why not just sd for a bit longer so that a lower weight is more effective and then build a routine with a lower starting rate so the increase in load over the length of the cycle is greater and the actual length of the cycle is longer too? for the sake of a few extra days sd (I'm speculating here, you may do enough sd as it is but if so then starting with the 15s should be fine) you will end up with more time working out for each cycle and less time sding relatively...hopefully = more time spent gaining!

Just my thoughts

Rob

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (mrh @ Aug. 18 2005,12:49)]are you/bryan saying ....

Ok simply put.
15's saying your 15 RM is 100 Lbs using 5 lb increments for simplicity.
75-80-85-90-95-100

10's saying your 10 RM is 120 with 5 lbs increments
95-100-105-110-115-120

5's saying your 5 RM is 140 with 5 lbs increments
115-120-125-130-135-140

Extended without negs
week one
140-140-142(using microweights)
week two
142-144-144(using microweights)
Week three
144-144-144
SD

Bob posted as very good approach if you wish to progress all the way through the 6 week period, if not then you could do what I pointed out earlier. But as Bryan as pointed out before in the heaviest of rep ranges that load could be used for weeks before RBE totally catches up and it becomes useless to continue, if you are gaining strength/size there is no need to stop.

I really guess this is the point I am trying to stress here, there are so many that believe just because HST is set up for an 8 week journey, that the journey ends at 8 weeks. It doesn't have too and there is no need for it too IF you are still going forward.

 

[chiefhog]

I'm in the post-fives (first HST cycle) and I am sticking with my established max. I'm using rest/pause, though. I do my five reps, rest 10-15 seconds, then pump out 3 more reps, rest, then pump out a few more. I like it so far.

 

[mrh]

Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ Aug. 18 2005,5:03)]

Quote[/b] (mrh @ Aug. 18 2005,12:49)]are you/bryan saying ....

Ok simply put.
15's saying your 15 RM is 100 Lbs using 5 lb increments for simplicity.
75-80-85-90-95-100
10's saying your 10 RM is 120 with 5 lbs increments
95-100-105-110-115-120
5's saying your 5 RM is 140 with 5 lbs increments
115-120-125-130-135-140
Extended without negs
week one
140-140-142(using microweights)
week two
142-144-144(using microweights)
Week three
144-144-144
SD
Bob posted as very good approach if you wish to progress all the way through the 6 week period, if not then you could do what I pointed out earlier. But as Bryan as pointed out before in the heaviest of rep ranges that load could be used for weeks before RBE totally catches up and it becomes useless to continue, if you are gaining strength/size there is no need to stop.
I really guess this is the point I am trying to stress here, there are so many that believe just because HST is set up for an 8 week journey, that the journey ends at 8 weeks. It doesn't have too and there is no need for it too IF you are still going forward.

thank you dkm- that clears things up.

 

[jvroig]

Hey

Since funguy hasn't posted again yet, I'll just say:

By the time you are in the very heavy weights, it probably won't matter if you try to extend the progression a little longer or keep on banging the heavy weights.

(This is, I merely suppose, where the seeming "conflict of opinion" [but only a very minor one] between Dan and Bob started.)

Let's try to qualify what I said:

I said it probably won't matter if you try to extend the progression by the time you are in the very heavy weights already (absolute 5RM or even higher) for two reasons: first, you've gone through a lot of progression already, and second, being very very near to your max, it will generally take much longer before this weight becomes ineffective, thus making progression not so necessary anymore.

It is also important to remember the point (just as Dan -DKM- said) that an HST cycle doesn't end because you finished a pre-determined number of weeks. It finishes when you find you have stopped growing for a couple of workouts straight, or feel unwelcome strain in your joints building up big time.

Given that important point, whether you try to increment continuously by repeating a weight three times before incrementing, or simply using our max until you can increment again due to growth / strength gain or until you have stopped growing, has very little difference.

But there will be a difference if you plan to stop at a predetermined number of weeks. If you plan to stop after a certain week, instead of when you stop growing or gaining anything from the workout, then I would be inclined to say that it would be better to increment as usual then just repeat the max. But if you have no such "time limit", and want to squeeze out as much hypertrophy as possible, then repeat each weight for 3 times before moving on, then repeat your absolute max until you feel you are not growing anymore.

Remember also that each repetition, even though still effective, won't produce the same hypertrophic effect. The heavier the weight, the more hypertrophy it would generally produce. So repeating a lighter weight won't be as effective as repeating a heavier weight, which is why if you have a "time limit" of sorts, I'd say just repeat your max, so you are repeating the heaviest weight. But if you have no such time limit, then you can freely take your time and repeat even the lesser weights.

Regards,
-JV

 

[xxfunguy007xx2000]

Thanks Jv for clearing that up. But heres the problem to me noticing growth or when to end my HST cycle. I am cutting. I am gonna see weight loss instead of wegith gain, maybe I ll see strength gain, but I dont know. So i Can only predetermine when to stop. But Thanks a lot for expllaining the two methods and clarifying everything.

 

[sphillip40]

*bump*

This post has helped me a lot. I always come back to this one.

 

[Totentanz]

Quote[/b] (xxfunguy007xx2000 @ Aug. 20 2005,12:50)]Thanks Jv for clearing that up. But heres the problem to me noticing growth or when to end my HST cycle. I am cutting. I am gonna see weight loss instead of wegith gain, maybe I ll see strength gain, but I dont know. So i Can only predetermine when to stop. But Thanks a lot for expllaining the two methods and clarifying everything.

Well to judge when to stop when cutting, you have to look at other things. Rather than muscle gain, look at when your fat loss stagnates. When you are cutting, eventually fat loss will stagnate.
What I do at that point is take a week or two and eat at maintenance or very slightly above. You may gain a little weight back initially, but after the week or two, get back at it and the fat loss should start happening again.
You don't have to SD during this period though. You can go back to the 15s. In fact, since you will be eating at maintenance, I think it's a good idea to go back into the 15s. That way by the time you are going to start cutting calories again, you will be back into the 10s.

Also a clear sign of when you need to stop with the heavy weights is when your joints start to hurt excessively.

 

[intacto]

How many sets do u usually do during ur 5s week. As u get closer to ur 5rm its pretty hard to do like 3 sets without clustering or some other technique. SO when u get into 5rm weeks how many sets do u usually do?

 

[jvroig]

Hey

If doing 3 sets is very hard and almost impossible already, then just do 2 sets.

If you reach a point that even just 2 sets becomes pretty impossible already (like in your absolute 5RM), then just do 1 good set.

If it already is that heavy and difficult for you, then you won't really need as much reps.

If it doesn't quite "feel" like a workout, you can oblige yourself by just doing some additional metabollic work after your workset.

Clustering is also a very good way to accomplish your workout. Of course, by the time your clustered sets reach only 1-2 reps each, and your target is around 20 reps, you may want to stop the exercise already and just add in some metabollic work, or just go on ahead to the next exercise.

Regards,
-JV