Hst/531/upper Lower Split

M

Matt1237

New Member
Hey Guys,

Looking to get some advice with the seniors around here - I'm back after my long journey. In the past year I have completed arnolds blueprint, ICF 5x5, HST, - busted my shoulder up and then went traveling for a while. I'm back now and have been cutting for a few weeks. Now I want to get very lean and build strength (since I can't really build muscle while cutting) I have always loved HST since I discovered it many years ago - this previous time when I ran it I had amazing results (probably a good amount of noobie gains). I also really loved 5x5 for the 2-3 months I did it.

What I would like to do now is do something along the lines of 5/3/1 - HST - 5x5. I have realized that behind every good program is built in progression. To me it seems like 5/3/1 is very similar to HST in its progression and theory - however it lacks the frequency of HST. What I'm wondering is if I can do an upper/lower split with 5/3/1 that goes like this.

Upper Days
Bench, Row, OHP

Lower Days
Squat, Deadlift, Lying Leg Curl (or SLDL)

I would perform this U/L/U/L/U/L/Off - Perhaps adding in more off days if necessary. Would this be ideal?
 
OK if:


Your shoulder is 100% clear. Any sign of pain, discontinue. OHP is not the best exercise with a compromised shoulder.

You are young enough to withstand the stress on your joints.

You form is 100% perfect.

You stay below failure.

Stay away from lying leg curls and heavy weight. That is an easy area to mess up. Also, doing squat and deads in the same workout may be too much.

Do not expect to build a lot of strength in a caloric deficit unless you are a fat noobie.


Without the above, you have a prescription for injury. Since you say you are a noobie, I would rather see you stick with regular HST or continue with your 5 rep maxes.


I should add that high frequency workouts are better for hypertrophy and low frequency/volume workouts are typically better for strength (power) gains. You need to be very specific in your goals to set the appropriate program up.
 
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Are you intending to do Bench, Row and OH Press all in one session 3 times a week and the same for Squat, DL etc and running it 5/3/1 as prescribed by Wendler? i.e. the following %'s of your training rep max (90% of actual / projected 1rm)

week 1 days 1&2 - 65% x 5 reps / 75% x 5 reps / 85% x 5+ reps
week 2 days 3&4 - 70% x 3 reps / 80% x 3 reps / 90% x 3+ reps
week 3 days 5&6 - 75% x 5 reps/ 85% x 3 reps / 95% x 1+ reps
week 4 - deload
 
Old and Grey said:
OK if:


Your shoulder is 100% clear. Any sign of pain, discontinue. OHP is not the best exercise with a compromised shoulder.

You are young enough to withstand the stress on your joints.

You form is 100% perfect.

You stay below failure.

Stay away from lying leg curls and heavy weight. That is an easy area to mess up. Also, doing squat and deads in the same workout may be too much.

Do not expect to build a lot of strength in a caloric deficit unless you are a fat noobie.


Without the above, you have a prescription for injury. Since you say you are a noobie, I would rather see you stick with regular HST or continue with your 5 rep maxes.


I should add that high frequency workouts are better for hypertrophy and low frequency/volume workouts are typically better for strength (power) gains. You need to be very specific in your goals to set the appropriate program up.
Click to expand...

Shoulder is clear, 25 y/o and joints don't generally hurt, form is good - full ROM and I don't typically push myself past 90% of my max. I lowered the 5x5 to 3x5 to accomodate heavy compounds. I'll try not to set my expectations too high =P But perhaps just continuing to stay at 3x5 and push weight at 5-10lbs at a time?
 
mickc1965 said:
Are you intending to do Bench, Row and OH Press all in one session 3 times a week and the same for Squat, DL etc and running it 5/3/1 as prescribed by Wendler? i.e. the following %'s of your training rep max (90% of actual / projected 1rm)

week 1 days 1&2 - 65% x 5 reps / 75% x 5 reps / 85% x 5+ reps
week 2 days 3&4 - 70% x 3 reps / 80% x 3 reps / 90% x 3+ reps
week 3 days 5&6 - 75% x 5 reps/ 85% x 3 reps / 95% x 1+ reps
week 4 - deload
Click to expand...

Yeah I am going to plan the progression so that it it follows the progression system - HST does that and thats what intrigued me about 5/3/1 so I will be following it if the program works out. I figured it would also make it less draining on my system while in a caloric deficit as well making the program feasible.
 
I believe that there were 2 options one was 10% and the other was 5% obviously the latter will have a bigger impact on the number of reps you will get in the 3rd set
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So what are your thoughts? Is this a bad idea do you think ? I also plan on using the agile 8 or some cominbation of (I noticed it doesn't really have any upper body component which I want to prevent shoulder injury.) So maybe that will help with recovery.
 
If I were to do this routine then I would start with the 10% increment version and see how that went for the 1st month, not sure I would attempt this set up during a cut based on my age (50) and therefore my ability to recover, but in saying that I am doing full body workouts 6 days a week. You are only 25 so recovery for you should be ok, try it for 4 weeks and see how you feel - never tried warming up agile 8 style so cannot offer an opinion on that, for shoulder injury prevention you could do band dislocates if you have a resistance band of course.
 
I think I'm just going to give it a shot and see what happens. If it doesn't work then thats fine. And if it does then great - I'll continue to do it. I just thought it would be pretty logical - its like hst except the rep range is just way lower.
 
So so far this is my plan.

My progression will go as follows.

Workout 1 3x5 @ 75% , Workout 2 3x5@80 Workout 3 2x5 @85 + 1x5+

That will be week 1 , and then for 3 reps I will be doing 80,85,90% in week 2

Week 3 I will be doing 85% and try to do 5+ again - Workout 3 will be 90% at 3+ and the final workout I will do 5,3,1+ with the 1+ being 95% + . I will follow this up by a deload week as he instructs.
 
Doesn't 5/3/1 have you doing way less volume than what you have scheduled and back fills with 5x10s@50% and back sets? Also I think he originally had you only training a lift once a week too. Definitely let us know how it works out but if you really want to train 6 times a week maybe look into the Bulgarian Manual by Greg Knuckols and Omar Isuf.
 
I would think the only thing advanced about it is the load. He states in the article its for anyone - so how is the program bad? It's no different than HST just in a different rep range. As Adpowah said there is the bulgarian method - and bulgarians would train something like the squat multiple times a day - several times a week. How is doing a structured program with planned increments bad?

Progression will go as follows Workout 1 Week 1 will be at 75% 1RM W2W1 @80% W3W1 @85% with the last set being a 5+ set. Same strategy for 3s (80,85,90). Final week will be 5+(85%), 3+(90%) and last day will be 5(85),3(90),1+(95) and the 4th week will be a deload(40-60% of new 1RM).
 
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Matt1237 said:
I would think the only thing advanced about it is the load. He states in the article its for anyone - so how is the program bad? It's no different than HST just in a different rep range. As Adpowah said there is the bulgarian method - and bulgarians would train something like the squat multiple times a day - several times a week. How is doing a structured program with planned increments bad?

Progression will go as follows Workout 1 Week 1 will be at 75% 1RM W2W1 @80% W3W1 @85% with the last set being a 5+ set. Same strategy for 3s (80,85,90). Final week will be 5+(85%), 3+(90%) and last day will be 5(85),3(90),1+(95) and the 4th week will be a deload(40-60% of new 1RM).
Click to expand...

I'll rephrase in part;

The original 5/3/1 is extremely subpar.

The update, Beyond 5/3/1 is a vast improvement.


Izzy gives a comprehensive analysis if that helps?

http://www.powerliftingtowin.com/beyond-531/


It also depends on what you want to achieve from your programming.
 
Wow, what an amazing read. Thank you Jester - at first I was like brah what are you talking about - but this analysis really hit a lot of points for me that I felt like were issues with the program as well, thus the increase in frequency and therefore volume to the lifts. Also felt the deload was a little soft as well. So many great resolutions here to make this program suited for a starting intermediate. Greatly appreciated, sir.
 
I'm wondering now if anything should be added, as far as assitance work. I am going to have to see how my lower back fares on all this. But aside from that - does anyone have any thoughts on assistance work? Is there anything you feel may be left out by the 6 exercises I have here? I was thinking maybe some arm work+vertical pull? Would love some feedback here.
 
Assuming you are still going to do Bench, Row and OH Press all in one session 3 times a week and the same for Squat, DL and leg curl or SLDL I personally see no need for any assistance work
 
Okay, thats what I was thinking - Any thoughts on what I could substitute BB rows for - I did this before when I did hst and I found at a point my lwoerback was getting sore often - but I think that was a case of muscle tightness - I never stretched, I did warm up sets but my lower back and hips got very tight. But maybe now that I'm doing agile 8+upper body that won't happen? A lot of people seem to be scared of the thought of rowing and dl 3x a week
 
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