HST and Eat/Stop/Eat

Discussion in 'Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST)' started by Mule86, Jul 2, 2012.

  1. Mule86

    Mule86 New Member

    I've been doing HST for a year and a half and really love the program. I've added solid mass and am now at the point where I would like to lose some body fat %... In doing research I came across Intermittent Fasting, Leangains, and Eat/Stop/Eat programs. I think I am leaning towards the eat-stop-eat at this point. I workout M/W/F bright and early at 5am. Am looking at a schedule like this:

    Monday - AM HST Workout
    Tuesday - Light AM Cardio Workout
    Wednesday - AM HST Workout - Begin fast at 6pm
    Thursday - Rest - Fast until 6pm
    Friday - AM HST Workout
    Saturday - maybe light cardio/Rest - Begin fast at 6pm
    Sunday - Rest - Fast until 6pm

    I think this is a plan that is simple enough to follow and would still yield nice results. Everything I've come across seems to say that I won't lose muscle doing eat-stop-eat or IF if you continue to strength train 3 days a week. I will still continue to utilize all of the HST principles in my workouts to maintain muscle mass. Taking creatine mono and whey protein only as supplements.

    Any advice or suggestions on the above would be appreciated.
  2. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Is there a reason you don't want to fast every day? Have you done fasting before? I see you are planning on doing two 24 hour fasts. If you haven't fasted before, 24 hours can be really difficult to survive through. I personally prefer an approach where you fast through most of the day then eat through the last portion of the day, beginning your fast just before bedtime. Psychologically, this is much easier for most people to stick to.
    If you plan to do the 24 hour fasts, it would be better to start it 24 hours after you have done weight training, as this is when protein synthesis hits it's peak and begins to decline back to baseline. So I would rearrange them so that you are fasting through most of Tuesday and Thursday. However, the 16/8 setup is much easier to maintain, so just wondering why you are leaning more toward the 24 hour fasts?
  3. Mule86

    Mule86 New Member


    I was leaning more towards the 24 hour fast for simplicity and for my lifestyle. I workout at 5am. I don't have any other time to do so. If I ate breakfast (which would be light as I eat at work, instant oatmeal/protein shake) and then a decent lunch, my 8 hour window for eating would be until 3pm. I wouldn't be able to eat dinner with my family as we eat around 5:30-6pm. That's where I came up with the 24 hour fast, twice a week. Really it doesn't sound that terrible to me. Especially since I won't be training on the days I fast. 8 hours of it will be sleeping so I think I could manage.
  4. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    I understand working it around dinner with the family. Have you considered not eating before or immediately after your workout? This varies on the individual, some have horrible workouts in a fasted state, some have great workouts in a fasted state.

    Anyway, I see nothing wrong with your plan, are you going to keep your calories at maintenance when eating? Will you be carb cycling at all? You can eat more carbs days that you are lifting, and cut them back a bit on days you aren't. I also like to eat slightly more overall on days I lift and slightly less on days I do not lift.
  5. Mule86

    Mule86 New Member

    I typically workout on an empty stomach as I workout immediately after I get up. I may have a small protein shake with some raw quick oats mixed in for a little carbs before the workout. After my workout I will have a protein shake and when I get to work a bowl of instant oatmeal about 30-40 minutes after I work out. I will eat a sensible lunch and dinner. I confess to not really counting carbs, protein, etc... I'm at the point where I'm just trying to eat healthy and now want to shed about 10lbs at least, preferrably from my mid section. I'm not overweight (6'3'' about 205lbs) but I'd like more definition at this point. I need to cut some body fat in order to do this. I'm going to do a week or two of eat-stop-eat and if that doesn't work maybe I'll do the IF and push my breakfast time back to like 10am and eat from 10am to 6pm every day?
  6. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Yeah give your plan a shot and if it doesn't give you results as fast as you would like, try IF. I think both will work for your purposes. You don't really have to count calories on IF however, you will obviously get faster/better results if you do. And if you did decide to count, then of course eating at or slightly above maintenance on workout days with the additional calories being from carbs, then cutting those additional calories on nonworkout days would give you good results. However, not really that necessary. The main thing I recommend to do is just eat a small breakfast, a small lunch and then have a good sized dinner. This usually keeps you at maintenance.

    I've done 24 hour fasting before and it did work. I didn't like it as much as the 16/8 setup but it just depends on how well you do. I get brain fog after 18 hours or so of not eating. An EC stack can help with this if it is something you can tolerate or have access to.
  7. Mule86

    Mule86 New Member

    When I say I won't be counting calories I don't mean I will be eating badly. I'll do my best to eat clean and try to get as much protein in as I can. I just don't count every carb or gram of protein that I consume. I know that I should but with three kids under 6 and a 10 hr a day job, time just doesn't allow. It's tough enough to get out of bed at 4:30 am to get my HST in. I will attempt to do the eat-stop-eat first and see if I can handle 24 hrs of fasting. I'm not sure if I will be able to or not since I've never attempted it. But I think if I put it into practice for a few weeks and start to see results then it will be hard to go back from.
  8. Mule86

    Mule86 New Member

    Totentanz, what have you found in doing IF and muscle mass? I've read all the research and reviews that claim that you won't lose any muscle if you are weight training three times a week which HST obviously does. I always go back to the old line of thinking that your body will burn muscle if it is in need of energy.
  9. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    I managed a recomp on IF while at 195 lbs of lean mass, which is supposedly damn close to the maximal amount my body can hold naturally. That means that I was at an even higher risk of losing muscle than people who are further from their genetic potential, yet I managed to lose fat and actually gain a small amount of lean mass on a (albeit slight) weekly calorie deficit.

    The key is that you have to be lifting heavy enough. I would not do 15s while trying to recomp or lose bodyfat. Your body will only really dig into the muscle if you are not lifting heavy enough, not keeping protein high enough or in special scenarios where you are already very close to your genetic max. At your genetic max, the amount of lean mass you can naturally hold depends on your bodyfat percentage. So leaner, you will not be able to hold as much lean mass as you can while carrying more bodyfat. This only applies to naturals. Obviously if you used prohormones or steroids during a cut, you will retain a greater amount of lean mass than you would as a natural just as AAS in conjunction with an IF setup pretty much guarantees you can recomp.

    So... for you, skip the 15s, don't start your 10s any lighter than 75-80% of your 10 rep max and keep protein at least 1 g per lb of bodyweight. If you do that, then there is really no concern about significant loss of lean mass. Remember, it is extremely difficult for the body to get energy from muscle, realistically speaking.
  10. Ironkid

    Ironkid Member

    Question for totentanz (sorry mule, not my intention to hijack the topic)

    If you had success with IF while dieting and actually built some muscle on a kcal deficit, wouldn't make sense to eat IF continuously, even on bulking? What are in your opinion the pros and cons?

    I am starting the renegade diet myself, which is (kind of) a combination of IF and paleo. I thought of doing ESE but the daily fasts seemed tough. On IF, on the other hand, the large feast at night helps my body ignore I'm on a deficit, making dieting quite easy to follow

    Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2
  11. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Sure it would make sense to do it indefinitely. If you can make it work for bulking, there is really no reason not to do it. I don't think you will avoid all fat gains but you can definitely minimize it compared to a traditional bulking diet. It just makes sense to concentrate your calories during the time when your body is building more protein.

    The first con (for me anyway) is that it can be difficult to work around schedules. My work schedule varies so much that some weeks I can strictly adhere to it and other weeks I cannot. Also some weeks I can lift religiously and some weeks I work so damn many hours that I cannot lift much if at all.

    The other con is that for larger individuals, it is difficult to get enough calories in the eating window. I currently weigh 240 lbs, due to my weight and my high activity level, I have to eat a minimum of 5000 calories a day to gain weight, which is very hard to do within the eating window. There is another bigger guy here, Brixtonian, who has attempted an IF bulk and couldn't do it for the same reason.

    If you only need 3000 or fewer calories a day to bulk and you can work it around your daily life, then I believe it would work great. I also believe that IF is better for overall health compared to a traditional diet but the evidence behind this is not yet rock solid.
  12. Ironkid

    Ironkid Member

    Thanks totentanz, really helpful. I'm actually 210 pounds but have a sedentary job so I'll try after the summer. My goal now is to get to 13-14% which will be difficult since i never went below 16. On other note, i do prefer the IF approach, i do enjoy the large night feast and not carrying containers all day ;-)

    Should anyone be interested, I'll keep you posted


    Sent from my GT-P7500 using Tapatalk 2
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2012
  13. Brixtonian

    Brixtonian New Member

    Hi,

    Sorry - I intended to get in on this thread earlier (work and family get in the way!)
    I found the following info re IF (cant remember where - and apologies if it sounds a bit disjointed?) I hope it helps re macros etc.......


    "These calorie figures are just a guide to help you calculate your macros. We’ve already recognized that these calorie numbers may be a little low to be taken literally because of the simplified rules.

    ‘Body-Recomposition’: Martin himself refers to a +20%kCal and -20%kCal rule for T-Days and R-Days respectively.
    So if you came out with 2000kCal from your calculation, then make a T-Day 2400kCal and R-Day 1600kCal.

    ‘Cutting’: You need to be lower than this so as to create a weekly energy deficit. Even so, you must eat a surplus of calories on a training day in most situations*.
    Your numbers might look something like 2200kCal and 1300kCal. (+10%/-30~35%kCal)
    (*Obese/Very fat people are at less risk of losing muscle when on a calorie deficit if protein is kept high, so they can get away with a deficit on both days.)

    ‘Slow-Bulking’: So you are already very lean and looking to do a bulk? (Skip to Step 5 if it’s irrelevant to you, because I go into a little more detail here.)
    If you are new to leangains I would highly recommend that you do ‘body-recomposition’ macros (or slightly less) for the month first while you adjust to the system. This way you will keep your abs and have a base-line for increasing your macros after. Once you’ve done that, try the advice below.
    If you have already used leangains to get lean then you’re in a perfect situation to try this.

    The key to keeping abs with slow bulking is quite simple, make sure you have enough of deficit on your rest-day so that you burn the stored fat* from the training day.
    Your numbers might look something like 1800kCal and 2800kCal. (+40%/-10%kCal)
    This is a way of putting on quality muscle without the fat, and as such is a slower process than the usual ‘eat everything!” approach some people take to bulking.
    (*The complicating factor here is that fat stored on a training-day is not just is that the fat you consume, but also any spillover of carbohydrates that your body does not shuttle into your glycogen depleted liver & muscles after training, or use for recovery, as any excess glucose can be converted to fatty acids and stored as fat tissue. If you can get your carb balance right, you can decrease the deficit on your rest-day. – Track your progress weekly, in detail so that you can make adjustments objectively.)

    Step 5. Calculate your Macro Targets for Training-Days and Rest-Days
    There is not one perfect macro-ratio. (i.e. 40% Carbs, 40% protein, 20% Fat) It varies from individual to individual, and depends highly on a persons conditioning. It can still take a few weeks of close monitoring to get a good ratio for a client, and even then, this ratio changes as a person progresses. This is why I monitor the progress of clients, I don’t just give them 3 numbers and send them on their way. You need to do this too.
    Protein

    Your protein needs to be kept high on both days, for satiety and muscle preservation. Research suggests that with maintenance calories there is there is little benefit to >2g/kg lean body-mass (LBM). On a cut, to preserve muscle mass this may need to be higher, i.e. 2.5g/kg LBM. There is no need to go higher than this. However, for personal preferences you can choose to go higher, & protein will give you the feeling of being fuller for longer so I sometimes go with 3g per kg of LBM*.
    If you are 100kg with a lean-mass of 70kg, and love eating meat, then you might put this number around 210g on both days.
    Otherwise you would choose 2-2.5g/kg LBM on workout-days and 2.5-3g/kg LBM on rest-days. It is fine to keep protein consumption the same on both days for simplicity for now. I do.
    (*Please just guess lean body-mass. Don’t get all worked up over it.)
    Fat
    Fat is only your ‘enemy’ on a training-day. When eating above maintenance calories, what you eat will be stored. Try and keep fat low on this day. What is low? 20-40g for most people. But keep it as low as you feel you consistently can.
    Fat on a rest-day is not an issue. You’ll have a calorie deficit so all dietary fat will be burned off. Use this fact to your advantage and increase the fat number on this day so that you can eat a greater variety of foods. How much is higher? This depends as well. For now, try double*.
    (*Reduce this number if it makes the carbs allowance overly strict. But bear in mind that carbs are meant to be significantly lower on rest-days.)
    Carbs
    For your initial calculation think of carbs as just balancing the equation as per your T-Day and R-Day ‘calorie’ targets. Let’s not go into more detail than that.
    1g of: P = 4kCal*, C = 4kCal, F = 9kCal
    (*Latest research suggests this to be more like 3.2kCal because of the energy required for digestion, however I suggest you keep it simple and call 1g of protein 4kCal.)

    Let’s consider a man called Tom, 100kg, 70% lean body-mass, choosing body-recomposition (+20%/-20%) whose BMR calc+multiplier gave him 2000kCal. (Remember what I said earlier, I know the number is a little low.)
    So the Training Day Macros are:
    P = 210g, F = 30g, C = 322.5g
    Calories from Carbs = [T-Day Target calories] – [Protein calories] – [Fat calories]
    = 2400 – (210 x 4) – (30 x 9) = 2400 – 840 – 270
    = 1290 (kCal)
    Carbs in grams = 1290 / 4 = 322.5
    Rest Day Macros
    P = 210g, F = 60g, C = 55g
    Calories from Carbs = [R-Day Target calories] – [Protein calories] – [Fat calories]
    = 1600 – (210 x 4) – (60 x 9) = 1600 – 840 – 540
    = 220 (kCal)
    Carbs in grams = 220 / 4 = 55
  14. Brixtonian

    Brixtonian New Member

    Hope this helps?
    As Totz has said, it is very difficult to get down 4000+ cals around training, and it leaves you feeling very lethargic and a bit bloated.

    I currently just aim for recomp (which is 3600 cals on training days - which is still a huge struggle - and 2400cals on rest days - which feels too litttle, and Im often painfully hungry later in the day)

    I do like the fasted training aspect (I train early in the day) and have 20g of BCAA immediately before and after training.
    I have noticed a loss of strength by not having carbs pre workout though

    But that said, I am now 41, lower metabolism (though active job) and getting huge is no longer my aim. I now look for a balance of health and muscle, and fat loss.

    I would say, that although you are only eating in that 8hr window, make sure you drink plenty of water, green tea or black coffee (unsweetened) through out the day, to keep you hydrated, and also to stave off hunger pains.

    Brix
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2012
  15. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    Yeah, second what Brix said about the hydration during the day. I find that black coffee in the cold months is great and I like cold iced green tea sweetened with splenda during the warmer months. The sweetened tea makes me think less about being hungry for some reason.
  16. hstchamp

    hstchamp New Member

    Been using IF for over 18 months now. Won a natural contest using it. It works perfectly with HST whether bulking or cutting.
  17. Ironkid

    Ironkid Member

    Sure it does, thanks a lot
  18. Ironkid

    Ironkid Member

    Thanks a lot totentanz, this forum would be dead without your participation
  19. Ironkid

    Ironkid Member

    congrats champ! How do you calculate macros and kcal on training/rest days and during cutting/bulking?
  20. hstchamp

    hstchamp New Member

    Bulking as high as 6000 a day.

    Cutting starting around 2500 tapering down weekly to 1200 using UD 2.0 protocols mixed in with IF.

    tb.jpg

    A week out from the comp

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