HST Beginner, advice needed

J

Juggernaut

New Member
Hi,
i've been reading alot about HST and i want to start with it. Im trying to put a cycle together but i need some help, im not sure if im doing everything right. First, about chins (underhand close grip), i can do 6 of them now, started from zero. But it's not possible for me yet to add weight, what will be the best way to include them in my cycle? I cant do a full dip yet, so im starting with doing negatives.
I work out at home, i have a barbell, dumbells and a powercage with a low and high pulley and i have a chinup bar.
Because i also would like to use my power rack to the most i've come up with this cycle and exercises but these are my questions:
-are there too much exercises?
-are the exercises good enough for HST? (with this i mean the exercises with the pulley's)
-is the volume enough for doing 1x15,2x10,3x5 with these number of exercises?

A
Squat
SLDL
Flat Bench Press
Barbell Row
Lat wide grip Pull down
Cable lying tricep extension
Chins (underhand close grip) as many as i can?
Dips (negatives) as many as i can? or push ups?
Im doing bicep work with the chins, i dont think i need barbell or dumbell curls here?

B
Squat
Deadlift (1x5) Im a beginner, not lifting heavy yet. When i do, i leave the squat out
Incline Bench Press
Cable Seated row
Lat wide grip Pull down
Cable lying tricep extension
Chins (underhand close grip) as many as i can?
Dips (negatives) as many as i can? or push ups?
same bicep question as with A

One more question, can somebody help me to place the exercises in a correct order? Im not good at this, yet.
So, am i bit on the right track or am i way off? Suggestions are very welcome. Thanks for the input.
 
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Juggernaut said:
First, about chins (underhand close grip), i can do 6 of them now, started from zero. But it's not possible for me yet to add weight, what will be the best way to include them in my cycle? I cant do a full dip yet, so im starting with doing negatives.
-are there too much exercises?
-are the exercises good enough for HST? (with this i mean the exercises with the pulley's)
-is the volume enough for doing 1x15,2x10,3x5 with these number of exercises?

A
Squat
SLDL
Flat Bench Press
Barbell Row
Lat wide grip Pull down
Cable lying tricep extension
Chins (underhand close grip) as many as i can?
Dips (negatives) as many as i can?
Im doing bicep work with the chins, i dont think i need barbell or dumbell curls here?

B
Squat
Deadlift (1x5) Im a beginner, not lifting heavy yet. When i do, i leave the squat out
Incline Bench Press
Cable Seated row
Lat wide grip Pull down
Cable lying tricep extension
Chins (underhand close grip) as many as i can?
Dips (negatives) as many as i can?
same bicep question as with A

One more question, can somebody help me to place the exercises in a correct order? Im not good at this, yet.
So, am i bit on the right track or am i way off? Suggestions are very welcome. Thanks for the input.
Click to expand...

You are on the right track, my friend and you will be very happy with HST I'm sure of it, welcome!

I started really working on pullups this past year and went from barely being able to string 5 together to... well, I'm going to test out my max reps today so we'll see if I can break 20!

I gained strength on pullups (I realize you are going to do chinups instead, but these are similar exercises) by clustering reps (got 15 to do? Hit 5, 5, 5 or 5, 4, 3, 2, 1) on some workouts and doing weighted pullups for other workouts. If you can do 6 in a row, you can add some decent weight and do 1 - 3 reps. That will help your progress tremendously. I max out at at Bodyweight+70 lbs for 1 rep. For some workouts, I would just do that for 5 sets.

Too many exercises? Maybe. It depends on you. I could handle this well during the 15s and 10s, but I'd drop some stuff for the 5s - 3 sets of 5 for 8 or more exercises is a long session.

You are sort of doubling up on a few things here. Dips are tricep heavy (especially if you aren't leaning forward), so maybe you could alternate dips for A and tricep extensions for B (or vice versa)? The same for chinups and pull downs. I wouldn't chose pull downs over chins, but you might gain some strength on your chins if you alternate A: chinups, B: pull downs. Most people think chinups use the arms more than the back, but chinups are actually really good for your lats.

I like to simplify. I, like you, was tempted to hit a lot of different things in 1 workout. I learned halfway through my first cycle that less is more - especially for us less experienced lifters. Here's what I would do if I had your exercises in mind and wanted to use my cable pulleys (in this order). I threw in Incline DB Press there so you can activate your stabilizers:

A
Flat Bench Press
Barbell Row
Deadlift
Lat wide grip Pull down
Cable lying tricep extension

B
Incline DB Bench Press
Cable Seated row
Squat
Chins - cluster reps through 15s, 10s, add weight 2nd week of 5s
Dips - negs starting out, but start trying to cluster reps by the 10s
 
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"Squat
Deadlift (1x5) Im a beginner, not lifting heavy yet. When i do, i leave the squat out"

So long as your deads and squats aren't heavy, it's okay to do both -- even in the same workout.

I like dixie's suggestion: if you can't do the necessary chins yet (who can...?), substitute a lat pulldown. Start with about half your body weight, then increment 5lbs or so each workout, until you reach your body weight. Then you can switch to chins.
 
I like the simplified workout that Whistle designed but I would consider changing two things though it’s really just a matter of personal preference.

In the “B” workout I would switch the Chin and Dips around with the Incline DB Bench Press and Cable Seated Row. Since body weight Chins and Dips are your weak link I would do those first.

In the “A” workout even though I know you want to get the most out of your cable system I would switch the Cable Lying Triceps Extension for Bench Dips which I think will help more with doing regular Dips.

Just my opinion though.
 
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Thanks for the info guys. I guess im going to need a weight belt. No problem, that would be a good addition to the home gym hehe. Im really sick of it that i lack in the chins and dips. I'm 39 now and i always played soccer, no surprise that my strongest exercise is the squat. I pay the price now for never developing the upper body, haha. But then again, a year ago my bodyweight was 103 kg, now it is 88 kg. So with some practice, i can do this too.
If i do deadlifts in both workouts or 1, should i stay at 1x5? I'm used to do 8 exercises, im now doing 4x8 with 8 exercises, 2 warmup sets and 2 work sets. Im going to try this workout with your advices and see how it goes, if its too heavy i'll drop exercises. Luckily they are all compunds except the tricep thingie. But i have to try it i guess to notice which of my muscles are getting hit to hard to drop the according exercises. Here it is:

A
Squat (im used to do them 3 times a week now and i love it, again SS)
Flat Bench Press
Barbell Row
Barbell Press (forgot this one for the shoulders. I did these with Starting Strenth and it helped my shoulders alot)
Deadlift
Cable lying tricep extension
Chins (clusters)

B
Squat
Incline Bench Press
Cable Row
Barbell Press
Deadlift
Cable pull down
Dips (negs until i can do them)

When i finish a cycle, should i change exercises? Or can i do 2-3 cycles with the same exercises, what is the best to do anyway?
 
For the Dead Lifts I would follow TunnelRat’s advice that you can probably do them both while the weights are light but as things get heavier I would listen to what your body is telling you and cut back if necessary.

I started out alternating between Squats and Dead Lifts each workout but as things got heavy for me I found that cutting back to once every 4 days worked best for me, but then I was doing a 6day/week routine.

When you finish this cycle you certainly can keep the same routine if you want. I would base it one how well it worked for you. I kept all the exercises from my first cycle and added a few more pulling movements for my next one because I found my pushing muscles were getting more work and I wanted to balance thing out.
 
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grunt11 said:
For the Dead Lifts I would follow TunnelRat’s advice that you can probably do them both while the weights are light but as things get heavier I would listen to what your body is telling you and cut back if necessary.
Click to expand...

thats my intention too, but how many reps/sets for the deadlifts? I guess 1x15,2x10 would be devastating?
 
Juggernaut said:
thats my intention too, but how many reps/sets for the deadlifts? I guess 1x15,2x10 would be devastating?
Click to expand...

How many reps and sets is hard to say since it’s really a matter of how much your body can handle and what you want out of them. If your cycle is going to be 1x15, 2x10, 3x5 then somewhere in the mid to high 10s you may find yourself needing to cut back the reps. So instead of doing 2x10 or 3x5 with a fixed weight switch to working your way up to a higher set of 1x5 each workout. The warm-ups you do to get to your working weight will give you the extra reps.
 
Juggernaut said:
Squat (im used to do them 3 times a week now and i love it, again SS)
Flat Bench Press
Barbell Row
Barbell Press (forgot this one for the shoulders. I did these with Starting Strenth and it helped my shoulders alot)
Deadlift
Cable lying tricep extension
Chins (clusters)

B
Squat
Incline Bench Press
Cable Row
Barbell Press
Deadlift
Cable pull down
Dips (negs until i can do them)
Click to expand...

You might also want to consider that including both the overhead barbell press and the incline bench might not be necessary. The flat bench hits your pecs and your front delts, incline bench and overhead press hit your upper pecs and mid-delts. Overhead press and incline bench both compliment the flat bench well, but unless you really want to target your shoulders you might not need to have incline bench and overhead press in the same session.
 
grunt11 said:
So instead of doing 2x10 or 3x5 with a fixed weight switch to working your way up to a higher set of 1x5 each workout. The warm-ups you do to get to your working weight will give you the extra reps.
Click to expand...
Im sorry, i dont think i understand what you mean with this. I should do workout 1 for example 1x5 70 kg and the next workout 1x5 75 kg or is this not what you are talking about?
 
whistledixie said:
You might also want to consider that including both the overhead barbell press and the incline bench might not be necessary. The flat bench hits your pecs and your front delts, incline bench and overhead press hit your upper pecs and mid-delts. Overhead press and incline bench both compliment the flat bench well, but unless you really want to target your shoulders you might not need to have incline bench and overhead press in the same session.
Click to expand...
You see? This is what driving me nuts, haha! But it's great to learn from everybody here. Ok, i replace the incline bench with the flat bench like in A. Thanks!
How many cycles do i have to do before i change exercises or can i do these always since they are compounds? I understand that when im more advanced i can throw in some more isolated work.
 
Juggernaut said:
Im sorry, i dont think i understand what you mean with this. I should do workout 1 for example 1x5 70 kg and the next workout 1x5 75 kg or is this not what you are talking about?
Click to expand...

Sorry for the confusion.

I would start out with the 15s doing 1x15 at say 70kg. The second workout would be 1x15 at 75kg. Then keep doing 1x15 adding whatever your normal progression is, in this example it’s 5kg. After the first 2 weeks of doing 15s switch to 2x10 for increasing weight for another 2 weeks of 10s. At some point probably during the second week of 10s or the first week of 5s the weight will be getting very heavy to maintain 15 to 20 reps at your working weight each workout. At that point I would switch to doing 1x5 at your working weight and keep adding more weight each workout. Here’s and example:

Workout 1 1x15 @ 50kg
Workout 2 1x15 @ 55kg
Workout 3 1x15 @ 60kg
Workout 4 1x15 @ 65kg
Workout 5 1x15 @ 70kg
Workout 6 1x15 @ 75kg

Workout 7 2x10 @ 70kg
Workout 8 2x10 @ 75kg
Workout 9 2x10 @ 80kg
Workout 10 2x10 @ 85kg
Workout 11 2x10 @ 90kg
Workout 12 2x10 @ 95kg

Workout 13 1x5 @ 100kg
Workout 14 1x5 @ 105kg
Workout 15 1x5 @ 110kg
Workout 16 1x5 @ 115kg
Workout 17 1x5 @ 120kg
Workout 18 1x5 @ 125kg

Nothing says you can’t try to do 2x5 or 3x5 Dead Lifts during the 5s but what I’m suggesting is that you may need to cut back the number or reps/sets as the weight get very heavy. Since you are new to Dead Lifting I wouldn't try to stick to a predetermined set/rep scheme through your whole cycle. Listen to what your body especially your lower back is telling you and adjust the sets/reps down or up as need to allow adequate recovery between workouts.

Also even when doing the 1x5s you would be doing warm-up sets so your total number of reps will be higher just not with the max working weight for that workout.
 
Juggernaut said:
You see? This is what driving me nuts, haha! But it's great to learn from everybody here. Ok, i replace the incline bench with the flat bench like in A. Thanks!
How many cycles do i have to do before i change exercises or can i do these always since they are compounds? I understand that when im more advanced i can throw in some more isolated work.
Click to expand...

This subject brings up something hotly debated among weightlifters - whether to stick with the same major lifts and continue to progress or switch out exercises to force the muscles to adapt to a slightly different form of resistance.

Many here believe that changing exercises frequently is fruitless for overall strength gains, maybe even detrimental. There is a muscular adaptation for every movement, but also a neurological one. Learning new movements involves the neurological adaptation first, then muscular. Changing to a new movement forces a trainee to first overcome the neurological adaptation before strength gains can continue so it might be better for those with overall strength gains as a priority to stick with what he/she has been doing and continue to progress. But some argue that there is so much carryover on similar lifts that the neurological aspect is pretty much a non-issue.

I probably butchered the crap out of that explanation, so I'll stop now before I make matters worse.

How do I personally feel about it? Right now, I'm focused on the powerlifts (squat, deadlift, press). I want to get those numbers up to a respectable level. I feel like those are the fundamental lifts in strength training and I want to be stronger in general. But I like change. I like to change things up just to keep it interesting. I get bored easily. Which is good and bad. But my boredom with my prior training is what led me to HST - which I'm very happy with - so that was a good thing.
 
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Yeah, you pretty much hit the nail on the head.

I recommend having a set of "core" exercises that you pretty much always do, and then on top of that you can layer on some misc lifts that you might switch around now and then. For instance, the core of my routines always revolves around deadlift, flat bench, back squat and rows. I add on whatever I feel I need to on top of those, but always do those four.
 
ok thanks. I was thinking the same about the core lifts. I've read Starting Strength and that Rippetoe kept on hammering abouts squats, deadlifts and all the compound lifts, he did a good job hammering it in to me. I'll stick with those too, and switch up the smaller lifts and isolated ones if i have the urge for it.
 
after reading some more on this forum i have a new question regarding my program. So im going to do this:

Squat
Flat Bench Press
Barbell Row
Barbell Press Deadlift
Cable lying tricep extension
Chins (clusters)

B
Squat
Incline Bench Press
Cable Row
Barbell Press
Deadlift
Cable pull down
Dips (negs until i can do them)

i was reading about how many sets to do. With these exercises will the volume/stimulus be enough to just do 1x15, 2x10, 3x5 or should i consider 2x15, 3x10 or 2x15, 3x10, 4-5x5?
 
Juggernaut said:
i was reading about how many sets to do. With these exercises will the volume/stimulus be enough to just do 1x15, 2x10, 3x5 or should i consider 2x15, 3x10 or 2x15, 3x10, 4-5x5?
Click to expand...

How much volume you need is likely not equal to how much I or another trainee needs. How much is enough for you might be something you need to experiment with. The HST ebook says something like (paraphrasing) 'if you are never sore, increase the volume; if you are always very sore, decrease the volume; if you are slightly sore most of the time, maintain volume'.

If it will help at all, I'll tell you what I did last cycle: 2x15, 3x10, 6x5 - to keep the total number of reps per session consistent throughout the program. I had great results. And I never felt overtrained - I slept well and was always fully recovered by the next session. But I wasn't able to do as many sets on the final day of 10s and the last 2 sessions of 5s because the weight was just too heavy. I cut the sets down on those to 2x10 and 3x5, respectively.

I'm not going to do it the same way next time, though. I experimented around during the whole cycle, doing different things to try and get the most out of the sessions where I was working with weight less than 90% of my max - and I found that I really enjoyed 'repping out' the final set of each lift. I also tried doing reverse pyramid-type stuff at the end of the sessions and doing high rep sets at 60% loads to induce burn. But I found I liked the results of repping out with the work set load on the final set of each exercise - until max day.

So, next time I'm going to do just 1 set of 15s, then another set of as many reps as possible (not going to absolute failure, but within a couple of reps of failure) - then move on to the next lift. For the 10s, 2 sets of 10, then rep out a final set before moving on to the next lift. Then for 5s, 3 sets of 5, then rep out a final set. On max days, I'll do a final set of 20 m-time reps (resting the bar a few seconds for each rep - you can read more about that technique in varous places on this forum).

I've read some stuff that Bryan Haycock wrote as well as some programming info on exrx.com and there is a consensus among experts that doing 2 sets is only marginally better for growth than just 1 set - and the benefits of doing more than 1 set decreases for each subsequent set to the point of diminishing returns.

This makes sense when you read about many on this site doing 1x15, 2x10, 3x5 and having fantastic results. They are keeping the volume low so they can keep the training frequency high. As long as the weight gets heavier over time, the muscles will grow.
 
Ok, what you are going to do next time is also an interesting approach. I was planning to do what was written in the faq:
"I suggest you do 2 sets per exercise during the 15s. Then do 2 sets during the first week of 10s, and 1 set during the second week of 10s. Then do 2 sets during the first week of 5s, and finish doing one set (after warm ups of course) during the last week of 5s" Have you had any experience with this? Im a bit worried about the 1 sets in the second weeks of each minicycle of the 10's and 5's, maybe your approach would suit me better. There's always more then 1 set to do.
When you do a final set of 20 m-time reps, isn't your workout going to be very long?
Btw, when i was calculating my max reps, i've changed my workout a bit. It's now:

A
Squat
Bench Press
Bent over Row
Barbell Press
Chins
Cable lying tricep extension
Leg Curls

B
Deadlift
Bench Press
Cable Row
Barbell Press
Cable Pull Down
Dips
Leg Extension

So now i'm alternating squats with deadlift's and inserted Leg curls and extension to compensate. I dont want to take the risk of burning myself out with the squats and deadlifts in the same workout.
 
Juggernaut said:
Ok, what you are going to do next time is also an interesting approach. I was planning to do what was written in the faq:
"I suggest you do 2 sets per exercise during the 15s. Then do 2 sets during the first week of 10s, and 1 set during the second week of 10s. Then do 2 sets during the first week of 5s, and finish doing one set (after warm ups of course) during the last week of 5s" Have you had any experience with this?

When you do a final set of 20 m-time reps, isn't your workout going to be very long?
Click to expand...

I've read in many places that 1 set is just as effective as 2 when you are taking on heavy loads (close to your max). The HST ebook is yet another source confirming that assertion. His suggestion here may have been to give a basic outline for new trainees - and to forewarn that you may need to cut back on volume as you get to your max or near your max. I found that I didn't have to cut back on the number of sets until I got to the final 2 workouts of 2 week block.

I only do a few lifts each session, so doing 20 m-time reps on 3 or 4 lifts doesn't cost me too much time. Granted, I may change my mind about this approach if it doesn't work out - its all experimental for me at this stage.

I do AM/PM sessions 3x a week:

AM
Shoulder Press
Pullup
Dip

PM
Bench Press
Squat / Deadlift (alternating)
Row / Shrug (alternating)

I'll add in some isolation stuff and ab work here and there for fun, but that is all I have programmed for the progressive loading. As you can see, my sessions are pretty short to begin with. I spend about 30 minutes in the morning before work and 30 minutes in the evening right as I come home. It works out best for me.
 
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