HST for joint rehab

Totentanz

Totentanz

Super Moderator
Staff member
I need the help of the HST think-tank here for an issue that I am facing.
As some of you know, I was doing 5x5 for a while, but my joints have been hurting like hell so I've stopped. Now I'm on UD2.0 for a while to cut back down. UD2.0 doesn't seem to hurt them too bad, but I really can't do many overhead pressing movements. My shoulders seem to have taken a huge beating, probably because I was setting PRs with military press every week the last few weeks of 5x5...

Anyway, I plan on going back into HST once I cut down a bit, but I want to hit this joint problem head-on. I plan to take a few weeks off once I'm done with UD2.0 to see if my body can take care of some of the problem itself during that time. After that, I plan to head back into HST.

Now... common knowledge around the forums suggests that the 15s are great for joint strength. I haven't done the 15s in quite a while, and I've never really had any major joint issues until now, so I am somewhat in the dark as to what works best for strengthening the joints and connective tissues.

So... anyone have any ideas to bounce around regarding this? I was thinking iso exercises mostly so I can avoid heavier weights, maybe starting with two weeks at 20 reps even, then two weeks at 15, finishing with 2 final weeks of 10s, avoiding the heavier 5s completely. The goal here will be strictly to strengthen joints, not build muscle, so I don't care too much about what's best for hypertrophy.

The joint problems I am facing are focused around the shoulders. Any exertion of force at shoulder level or above seems to tweek my shoulders. I can bench without much problem, but overhead pressing really sucks. I have some fairly minor pain in my wrists and knees. My fingers were even getting sore for a bit, but that has subsided. Those aren't a big deal, I imagine they will go away during SD... but the shoulder bit is really bothering me, as it is effecting day-to-day activities a bit.

I imagine dumbbell work would probably be better for joint rehab than a barbell, but maybe that's not necessarily true...

So anyway, any suggestions on which lifts would be best to incorporate? I imagine I'd like to start off with squats, which although a compound and a fairly heavy one, does produce a lot of lactic acid for me during high reps. I've been doing them during depletions during UD2.0 so I know I can easily handle high rep squats. Hopefully they will strengthen my knees a lot.

Shoulders are a conundrum for me. I've read about cuban presses, but aren't those mostly for the rotary cuff? Would overhead pressing issues even be related to the rotary cuff? I haven't done enough research in this area, so any links to informative sites would be appreciated.

Aside from the training, I want to incorporate some dynamic stretching and a little bit of static stretching post workout. I haven't been doing stretches as much as I used to back when I was really into Wing Chun, so it would probably be a good idea...

As a last note, it's probably worth mentioning that I plan to eat at maintenance during this period. I'm currently 220 @ around 12%, but I'll surely be a bit lower than that by the time I start. I may need to bump calories up a bit with all the high rep work, but I'll figure that out when the time comes.
 
Totentanz, just as a tip, just in case....... I read in thet Gold gym encyclopedia and the bodybuilding 101 book that military press behind your neck or actually all behind your neck over presses are harmful for your shoulder in the long run...... if you do this movement a lot, perhaps you should try lifting in front of your neck.
 
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">military press behind your neck or actually all behind your neck over presses are harmful for your shoulder in the long run</div>

100 percent agree!!!
we think so in germany too!
 
Agree behind the neck presses are bad, but I doubt you were doing those anyway?

I too am not that educated on the rotater cuff.

However I would start with dumbeel for everything upper body this is what I did when I hurt my shoulder.

If dumbell hurt go to hammer strength machines if you have them at your gym.

Again I would just stick to light weights high reps with dumbells and prob keep sets very minimual and frequency at everyday. Like you said you are not worried about hypertrophy so set up a program were you can workout and stretch lightly everday for say 30 mins.

I think the majority of your problems will go away with SD...however when my shoulder/ pec tie in area starts hurting from my old injury I normally SD, and I will tell you that after I SD...my shoulder actually hurts even more for about 2 weeks when I first start back to lifting. I think this is from were SD its not being used...kind of the old mantra &quot;use it or lose it&quot; So I think rest is good but only for say 2 weeks then start back slowly with light high reps 20 reps or so, and a good stretch.

Let us know how it goes.

and lastly congrats on 220 at 12% bf...thats pretty damn big!!!
biggrin.gif


Oh forgot to add...like i said earlier my shoulder does hurt more when I first start back lifting but it also gets to feeling a lot better in about week or two and then its back to normal...so dont worry about that!
tounge.gif
 
I switched from behind the necks to infront of the face overhead presses and ALL OF MY SHOULDER PAIN EVAPORATED WITHIN 2 WEEKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Just in case you have been using a Smith Machine here's my experience:

This cycle I switched from using the Smith Machine for presses to standing presses as I was getting a nasty sharp pain in my right shoulder during the exercise from about half-way lowered to the fully lowered position. I am now on 5s and my right shoulder feels almost as good as my left. The pain has all but gone.

Perhaps it had something to do with the restrictive movement using the Smith m/c? Standing press definitely feels like a more natural movement.
 
like joe muscle said:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Again I would just stick to light weights high reps</div>
i think go with this for four weeks and make NO! behind your neck presses !! i would suggest set your programm up with hst-principles, go with some compounds and ad two or three exercises for your rotators. make this exercises with leight weights and high reps.
sorry i cant name you these exercises by (english) names, but i think on www.exrx.net you will find some exercises for your rotators.


(i have had these problems too in my rotators after my second hst-cycle and now its good)
so first go and heal it and then you can hit the gym heavy again
biggrin.gif

when its better or good after this four weeks i would do the rotator exercises furthermore in your next cycles, with always light weights and high reps)

greets
 
It very well could be rotator cuff. I think my rotator cuff is tweaked too. See if you can do an Arnold dumbell press? I can bench just fine but it hell for me to do incline barbell presses. I guess I activate my rotator cuff quite a bit for that press and I have to do about four warm up sets to do that lift. That's too many warmups for me so I am going to scrap that lift and either do dumbells at a lower incline or use the hammer strengt incline machine which doesn't tend to turn my rotator cuff but still hits my uppper pecs. I think I might switch from a smith machine military press (front) and do the arnold press. I don't have pain when I do that. My wife is a physical therapist and she agrees that my problems are rotator cuff related? Oh yeah, congrats on 220 at 12%. That's big.
smile.gif


Keystone
 
I don't do behind the neck presses, just standard military press and the seated version. I only work with free weights as well, no machines, since I'm typically working in a home gym. I've thought about form being an issue, but after having another set of eyes doing a critique, I'm sure this isn't the issue.
I tried the arnold presses and it was much more comfortable, so I'll likely use that during the joint rehab phase.

So here's the routine I'm toying with

Squat
DB incline bench
Arnold press
Cuban Press
Chins
Bentover Rows
maybe another lift for legs


That's about it. Any other good joint strengthening exercises? I thought about wrist curls to help out the wrists, since they were starting to get a little rough from all the benching, but I'm not sure that would help at all.

BTW, I'm 6'1. 12% may have been a bit of an underestimation. I'm not really sure at this point. Maybe if I got rid of all the hair, it would be easier to judge based on how my abs look, heheh. But my skinfold measurements are giving in the 12-13% area, so hopefully that's accurate. Thanks for the congrats though.
After the rehab thing, I'm going to SD and then head into a standard HST cycle. Like I said before, I haven't done 15s in a very long time, so now I sort of see why they can be important. I do metabolic work during heavier loads, but I guess it's not quite the same as doing straight 15s. I'm still trying to decide whether to maintain my weight until the fall, then bulk, or just start bulking after that. I'm caring less and less about remaining lean, so maybe I'll just go into a five year long bulk and see how long it takes to hit 300 lbs. Hah.
 
Routine looks good. Like you said you could prob throw in another leg exercise or set. But this is about rehab basically so I dont think it a big deal either way.

I doubt the wrist cursl will help any IMO. If I had to guess the future the light dumbell work with high reps will help the shoulder and SD will help other nagging small things like your wrist.

I use to do standing barbell curls real heavy back in the day for about 8 sets straight and my wrist hurt like hell back then...it was just over use...so that is prob were your wrist pain could be coming from sense you are coming of 5x5 routine with heavy weights!
 
Tot

I share this with you! I tried 5 x 5 for about two weeks and my shoulder joints were also sore.

Felt great to hit PR's almost constantly, eventually i just went back to HST negatives and the shoulder pain subsided somewhat!

I think your idea could work, even missing out the 5's, although If I was you i'd do it only for the shoulders as the rest seems to be fine.

I have before posted some stuff on shoulders, being a conundrum, Erick Crassey wrote an article called Cracking the rotator cuff conundrum at T-mag I think, I am sure i have posted the link somewhere, but you welcome to contact me on my private e-mail and I'll send to you. Too big to post!
 
Thanks Fausto, I found the thread. Looks like some good info. I may just progress the cycle into the 5s after all, but drop the shoulder work once I hit the 5s. I don't think my shoulders need much direct work anyway.

Glucosamine has never worked very well for me.
 
A few other suggestions, what worked for me.

1. Up the fish oil and take some aspirin.
2. Avoid movements that aggrevate the pain or hits that impinged point.
3. Use light load rehab, very light weight, internal and external rotation, and abduction movements. 3X week. 20 - 40 reps.
4. When pressing above your head do not bring your elbows below the plane of your shoulder, IE BB press to top of your head or occiput, not below.

This is if it's musculature related, if it's lesions/spurs/acromoclavicular hypertrophy then it probably won't help.
 
just a thought

if your still experiencing joint pain in a few weeks go see a physical therapist. they are certainly not a &quot;cure all&quot; but a good one can be a great resource and a lot better than trying to figure it all out yourself.
 
<div>
(Dan Moore @ Apr. 23 2006,15:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">A few other suggestions, what worked for me.

1. Up the fish oil and take some aspirin.
2. Avoid movements that aggrevate the pain or hits that impinged point.
3. Use light load rehab, very light weight, internal and external rotation, and abduction movements. 3X week. 20 - 40 reps.
4. When pressing above your head do not bring your elbows below the plane of your shoulder, IE BB press to top of your head or occiput, not below.

This is if it's musculature related, if it's lesions/spurs/acromoclavicular hypertrophy then it probably won't help.</div>
1. Good thinking. How will aspirin help other then dulling the pain though? How often to take the aspirin?

2. Been avoiding shoulder press for over 2 months, no luck though

3. been doing 15reps 2sets 5x/week, will switch to even higher reps




i think hst may cause more shoulder issues than other routines due to the increase frequency. im starting to consider seeing a sports therapist, as i have been dealing with this since early december.
 
it wouldnt let me edit my previous post...


dan, for #3, you recommend 3 times a week. however you didnt mention how many sets.
 
toten, curious indeed, I was doing my military press the same way as you are doing it and since the begining of the cycle I feel pain on my left shoulder (even though is not behind the neck) and getting worse, after last workout I decided to drop that shoulder press and go back to the DB shoulder press, which is what I had been doing before with no pain
 
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