hst principles?

[trash]

I've gone through 4 cycles of hst. I'm very happy with the results. However, I'd like to try something a little different just for the sake of variety. I've surfed the threads here and I haven't come across my question yet, so I thought I would ask it.

I would like to try something a little different but I want to make sure that I adhere to the principles that Bryan has set forth. They sure have worked so far.

In a standard hst workout, the reps remain the same as the weight increases until you reach your max for that rep scheme. Then the weight increases a bit more but the reps drop until you reach your max in the next rep scheme.

The reps stay constant for two week periods, but the weight always increases, except for a little zig zagging that may occur.

I was wondering if I would still be adhereing to the principles if I reversed it. If I kept the weight the same, but added a rep every workout, until I maxed out in reps. Then I would add weight and start the cycle again.

For example, let's say I started with two sets of eight and 200lbs for a bench press. I would add one rep for the next workout, so I would do one set of eight and one of nine. Then I would do two sets of nine for the next workout. Then one set of nine and one set of ten. I would continue this up to about two sets of 12. At which point I would add weight and start back at two sets of eight and continue up on up to two sets of 12.

It seems to me that this would still follow the principles. Each workout would be harder than the last until you reached your max. Then you would start again with a little more weight. After 3 cycles of this, some strategic deconditioning. When that's over, start again at the same weight you did for the last cycle.

In a nutshell....

standard way - increase the weight every workout for a two week period while keeping the reps the same until you max out in weight while keeping the reps constant. Then add weight and lower the rep scheme until you max out again in two weeks. Repeat. You go through three different rep phases with constantly heavier weight. ( not including the negatives or thier options ).

variation - increase the reps every workout for a two week period while keeping the weight the same until you max out in reps while keeping the weight constant. Then add weight and start over. Repeat. You would go through three different weight phases with constantly added reps.

I'm looking for a little variety and I thought I would run this by you guys.

Thanks.
Austin

 

[faz]

good question..

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Just my 2 cents.

In your example you state start @ 200 Lbs, working your way up to 12 reps. Therefore you would be working with your 12RM not your 8 RM, so just pointing that out.

Having just tried something very much like what you are contemplating let me say,
1. Because of the difference between your working weight and rep max you will be able to hit additional reps easily up to your max, then it may take a week or more to even get one additional rep. So this isn't really a true way of identifying anything or actually improving much. If you were to use your RM (say 8RM) and try to add a rep to each workout until you get to a prespecified number then as I mentioned above it could take a while.

2. Even though increasing work has something to do with changes seen in the muscle I still beleive that load is a predominant player. So the question begs, would this be any better that increasing the weight?

My current plan is to start with the normal submax weights, but rep out, this allows more TUT for the lighter weights but I will also increase load each workout.

In a nutshell, yes you are still using progressive load and it's still within the Principles.

 

[faz]

My current plan is to start with the normal submax weights, but rep out, this allows more TUT for the lighter weights but I will also increase load each workout.

dan when you say this, do you mean you are going to do one set of each exercise,each day do as many reps as you can and add weight every day,untill you reach your five rep max

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Basically just plain ole HST except in the lighter weights (sub max) I just go for how many reps I can.

Other twists, I work at home so I have the convenience of being able to hit it 3X day. AM-Noon-PM So 3 sets per day but hours between sets.

All my increases in load will be 10%. I'm gonna start with my 10RM since I was doing a failure experiment with my 12RM and don't wish to revert.

10RM-1 set how ever many reps I can get & stay just shy of failure
wo1-60% 10RM
wo2-70% 10RM
wo3-80% 10RM
wo4-90% 10RM
wo5-100% 10RM
wo6-100% 10RM

8RM-1 set how ever many reps I can get & stay just shy of failure
wo1-60% 8RM
wo2-70% 8RM
wo3-80% 8RM
wo4-90% 8RM
wo5-100% 8RM
wo6-100% 8RM

6RM-1 set how ever many reps I can get & stay just shy of failure
wo1-60% 6RM
wo2-70% 6RM
wo3-80% 6RM
wo4-90% 6RM
wo5-100% 6RM
wo6-100% 6RM

4RM-1 set how ever many reps I can get & stay just shy of failure
wo1-60% 4RM
wo2-70% 4RM
wo3-80% 4RM
wo4-90% 4RM
wo5-100% 4RM
wo6-100% 4RM

 

[Joe.Muscle]

Dan I am curious how is that 3 times a day frequency working for you? Never seen that approach prob b/c its not pratical for most of us...but I would like for you to share your results with the increased frequency. My guess is you have to eat, eat and eat??? Correct?

Also without getting to scientific, I have made great results over the years by lowering the amount of weight I use and going with slower more controlled strick reps? I am guessing simply TUT...b/c there was a time before HST were I didnot increase load that much!

To me at least it seems if you were to pick a weight say 200 pounds and you could get only 8 reps (not including failure) and you progressed up to 12 reps ( not including failure) that is would be great for gains???

Just food for thought!

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (Joe.Muscle @ Sep. 27 2005,2:07)]Dan I am curious how is that 3 times a day frequency working for you? Never seen that approach prob b/c its not pratical for most of us...but I would like for you to share your results with the increased frequency. My guess is you have to eat, eat and eat??? Correct?

Didn't do me much when I went to failure each time, but it prove to myself something I had been wondering. It made me hungry though

.

Actually I am still working out about 45 mins a day (about 15 mins each workout), so as far as calories not much difference than before.

 

[trash]

dkm,
You said "In your example you state start @ 200 Lbs, working your way up to 12 reps. Therefore you would be working with your 12RM not your 8 RM, so just pointing that out."

Thanks for pointing that out. You're right and I forgot to say that. Not that my 12RM or 8RMis that high

I just used a nice round number like 200 for my example. Anyway, thanks for you're input. I appreciate it. HST concepts have been real good to me. And I can honestly see how the science of it works.

I workout at home with free wieghts. One thing I didn't like about my standard HST workout was adding weight to all my bars for the next workout. In the beginning it seemed kind of cool. A mental boost knowing that on my next workout I will do all my lifts with more weight than the last time. In the beginning it made me feel like king s**t. After a couple cycles, I got tired of adding all the plates either before or after a workout.

But get this, in the end, I will spend just as much time because of added reps.

Oh well. It tricks my feeble mind for a minute, makes me feel like I am spending more time working out than adding weight to the bars. A cycle or two this way, and I will go back to the standard way I'm sure. I'll get a kick of loading bars for each workout again.

One thing's for sure. I really like the whole progessive load, deconditioning thing. I know that pyramiding is a standard body building technique. HST has always reminded me of pyramiding for the long haul. Pyramiding the big picture, instead of trying to cram it all into one session.

Thanks,
Austin

 

[noah]

DKM, when do you increase load on your routine, between every workout (3 increases in 1 day), every day, every other day, or something else?

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Since I break upper and lower up into seperate days, every other day.

In other words I am training upper and lower only 3X week, so 9 sets per week per muscle group. On lower I might go to 4 sets day, depends on time available and if I feel like it.

 

[faz]

dan i was reading some of your ideas on your site..
at the moment i am doing
2sets 15s
2sets 10s
3sets 5s
i was thinking of doing 1set for the 15s but repping out on the submax weights 1 short of faliure do you think one set will be enough...

 

[Rain]

Quote[/b] (dkm1987 @ Sep. 27 2005,2:14)]Basically just plain ole HST except in the lighter weights (sub max) I just go for how many reps I can.
Other twists, I work at home so I have the convenience of being able to hit it 3X day. AM-Noon-PM So 3 sets per day but hours between sets.
All my increases in load will be 10%. I'm gonna start with my 10RM since I was doing a failure experiment with my 12RM and don't wish to revert.
10RM-1 set how ever many reps I can get & stay just shy of failure
wo1-60% 10RM
wo2-70% 10RM
wo3-80% 10RM
wo4-90% 10RM
wo5-100% 10RM
wo6-100% 10RM
8RM-1 set how ever many reps I can get & stay just shy of failure
wo1-60% 8RM
wo2-70% 8RM
wo3-80% 8RM
wo4-90% 8RM
wo5-100% 8RM
wo6-100% 8RM
6RM-1 set how ever many reps I can get & stay just shy of failure
wo1-60% 6RM
wo2-70% 6RM
wo3-80% 6RM
wo4-90% 6RM
wo5-100% 6RM
wo6-100% 6RM
4RM-1 set how ever many reps I can get & stay just shy of failure
wo1-60% 4RM
wo2-70% 4RM
wo3-80% 4RM
wo4-90% 4RM
wo5-100% 4RM
wo6-100% 4RM

I've been thinking about doing just that myself. I feel that, especially in the lighter part of the cycle, there should be room for doing a bit more, while still avoiding going to failure.

This would mean about 20-25 reps when starting out with "15's". I'm probably gonna try that next cycle. I guess the problem will be (as always) to find a balance between pushing it to the max without going to failure, but then again the weight will be relatively low. This balance will most likely become even more delicate when in the lower rep range.

Regards,
/ R

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (faz @ Sep. 29 2005,3:29)]dan i was reading some of your ideas on your site..
at the moment i am doing
2sets 15s
2sets 10s
3sets 5s
i was thinking of doing 1set for the 15s but repping out on the submax weights 1 short of faliure do you think one set will be enough...

Maybe, Maybe not. You would have to see. I wish I could say but it depends on too many things.

 

[faz]

i only meant repping out on the sub max weights for 15s one set..i want to stay with the hst principals but i was thinking this might give more muscle gains in the 15 rep range.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (faz @ Sep. 29 2005,7:23)]i only meant repping out on the sub max weights for 15s one set..i want to stay with the hst principals but i was thinking this might give more muscle gains in the 15 rep range.

I understand, but I guess the problem with determining if one set is enough comes down to your level of conditioning at the time, the rep speed, how close you get to failure, plus others.

The one thing I will say is during the lighter work I feel doing more work is needed. Simply to get more MU recruited and have the tension felt by more fibers.

So just from a Time/Tension kinda view.
Intensity=15RM
weight=100 Lbs
Time per rep=1 sec concentric-1 sec eccentric=2secs
Reps=15
=30secs of 100lb tension

Sub max say 70% of RM
weight=70lbs
Time=2secs
Reps=20
=40secs of 70lbs

would an additional 10 secs be enough to overcome the 30Lb tension deficit? Depends

 

[faz]

cheers dan i will try 1set in my next cycle on 15s ..after repping out...not to faliure....i will see how it feels if it doesnt feel like the muscle has been worked hard enough i will try another set..should i rep out on the 2nd set or just go for the 15.

 

[Fausto]

Dan

I think I get it!

What is the purpose of this type of variation, does it still get good hypertrophy or is there another side to it?

Has anyone had good results by using this?

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (faz @ Sep. 30 2005,1:28)]cheers dan i will try 1set in my next cycle on 15s ..after repping out...not to faliure....i will see how it feels if it doesnt feel like the muscle has been worked hard enough i will try another set..should i rep out on the 2nd set or just go for the 15.

I rep out in each set, just staying shy of failure.

 

[imported_dkm1987]

Quote[/b] (Fausto @ Sep. 30 2005,4:59)]Dan
I think I get it!
What is the purpose of this type of variation, does it still get good hypertrophy or is there another side to it?
Has anyone had good results by using this?

Purpose?

To increase the TUT when the weights are low. Looking at TTI (Time Tension Integral) stuides, Occlusion studies, recruitment stuff and other things and HST. It seems that in lower weights, in order to increase MPS, more TUT is needed.
In any lift involving @ 80-90% 1RM all fibers are recruited. This only tells us that naturally during the weights below this fatigue must be development in order to get to Type II recruitment. Eccentrics and Occlusion seem to be the only other two means of changing this(Ecc and Occlusion activate Type II fibers quicker). As the type ones fatigue more MU(Motor Units) are recruited including type II MUs. The tricky part is that during isotonic movements the tension that is felt is the same as what's on the bar (keeping it simple) so in order to have the type II's exert any tension (during low loads) they must be recruited first, so we must induce enough fatigue to get them activated.

At first I was going to failure to allow recruitment but for me it was too draining and within 2 weeks I had lost desire to continue, so failure aint it. Now I am just repping out.
With what I said about tension and load during isotonics, it can only be seen that progressive loading is the only way to keep tension increasing, which is why I am using a progressive scheme.

In order for the tension to increase in magnitude I am using increments no less than 10% for each increment, sometimes more, even though this means I am, in all actuallity, using my 20-25 RM at first, I don't care. This isn't very far from a normal HST routine, the only difference is repping out instead of stopping at a predetermined number of reps. Please remember HST is not about sets and reps, it's about creating an anabolic environment and then perpetually retaining this environment.

Has anyone had results?

Don't know, we'll see.

 

[lcars]

ive was thinking of doing a very similar thing start by doing say :
mon- 15s@200lbs @100%load
wed- 15s@200lbs @100%
fri   - 15s@200lbs @100%
but as i go through the week slow the reps down so by the second week my reps are slow but not as slow as negs,i decided against it cos im not sure it would do me anygood.
i also thought about(keeping@100%load) increasing the weight and dropping reps all the way through the cycle but that means i would have to start very high on the rep range so really not practical.