HST question regarding loads, strength training

[slowgrower]

Hello gang,

Wanted to get a clarification from you guys regarding strength levels and HST. Let's say you do a standard total body A/B split (e.g. Simplify and Win) with the weights of 80%, 90%, 100% of your xRM (15, 10, 5) for 6 weeks. If you're always working within the limits of your strength, where do the PRs come from? Testing yourself for the next HST cycle?

What I'm trying ask is... let's say you stop on Week 6 at 100% of your predetermined 5 RM... the micro-trauma and cumulative effect of training for the past 6 weeks has caused growth and hence made you stronger, do you push forward at this point (linear progression) to achieve new strength levels for the next cycle, or do you SD, test your rep ranges again, SD, and then start a new routine? What is optimal? I know there has been discussion on this board about zig zagging the weight is OK as long as it goes higher and higher.

The point I'm trying to address is bigger guys usually lift heavy weight. If you're always working within what you can do without pushing yourself (even though SD has reduced your capacity for work) how much incentive does your body have to grow and become larger? There is a relationship to size and strength.

My next question is... if you're working within your predetermined capacity (90% of a 10RM load, for example), what happens when you start supplementing with beta alanine, creatine, N.O., and other pre-workout supplements and the exercises start getting really easy for that weight load? Is the answer simply add another set to create more micro-trauma for a given weight because you can handle the volume?

I don't want to answer my own question, but as long as the weight keeps going up, hypertrophy will occur until the weight can't go up any more for a particular rep range, at that point you've plateaued? Or does RBE factor in earlier and stop your gains even though the weight continues to go up (say, 3-5 rep range)?

 

[Bryan Haycock]

I'm going to answer this but it's going to be a long one...so somebody better read it. I don't care who, just somebody.

 

[Bryan Haycock]

It's a short HST FAQ book or something

Let's say you do a standard total body A/B split (e.g. Simplify and Win) with the weights of 80%, 90%, 100% of your xRM (15, 10, 5) for 6 weeks. If you're always working within the limits of your strength, where do the PRs come from? Testing yourself for the next HST cycle?

By PRs I assume you mean new 1RMs? A lifter doesn’t have to perform a 1RM attempt to know if he/she is getting stronger.
If you wish you may test all your 1RMs at the end of the cycle to see if there are changes, but this generally isn’t necessary. If you found that your predicted maxes were too conservative simply add 1 increment worth of weight to the maxes for your next cycle.

…let's say you stop on Week 6 at 100% of your predetermined 5 RM... the micro-trauma and cumulative effect of training for the past 6 weeks has caused growth and hence made you stronger, do you push forward at this point (linear progression) to achieve new strength levels for the next cycle, or do you SD, test your rep ranges again, SD, and then start a new routine?

You may continue adding weight at the end of your cycle to see where your true 5RMs are, but in my experience this hasn’t proven necessary. A lot of it depends on what absolute loads you are using. If you are crazy strong and are pushing really heavy loads as it is, going heavier generally only predisposes you to an increased risk of injury. If you are still fairly green and still growing rapidly, you can go ahead and push the weights higher, but even then I would recommend doing this during the 15 rep block or the 10 rep block. Pushing the 5s longer and heavier than is necessary increases the risk of injury and/or joint pain.

What is optimal? I know there has been discussion on this board about zig zagging the weight is OK as long as it goes higher and higher.

What is optimal as far as day-specific weight loads depends on the lifter. If you finish two weeks of 5s and on the last day you go ahead and rep-out on a given exercise and are able to do 10 reps, it wouldn’t hurt to go another week working up to your true 5RM.

There are circumstances where that would not be optimal however. It could be that other muscle groups, or even smaller muscles used in that specific exercise (e.g. shoulders and benching) are not so ready to push it heavier and longer. In that situation you should go ahead and start SD and let your shoulders live to bench another day.

So while trying to figure out the best rate to progress your poundages, try to keep the big picture in mind. You aren’t just hitting 1 muscle each week. There are many different muscle groups and many different exercises that all tend to progress at their own speed. Make decisions based on the weakest players and you’ll avoid unnecessary down time trying to nurse a sore joint/muscle back to health.

The point I'm trying to address is bigger guys usually lift heavy weight. If you're always working within what you can do without pushing yourself (even though SD has reduced your capacity for work) how much incentive does your body have to grow and become larger? There is a relationship to size and strength.

That is actually a good question (not that your others weren’t  ). There is a relationship between size and strength, namely the torque that a muscle is able to produce is directly related to its cross sectional area. This means you can compare the force generating “potential” of two muscles by comparing how big around they are. Some of you that are familiar with muscle physiology are probably thinking it’s more complicated than that and you’re right, pennation angle, insertion points, joint type, and neuromuscular factors all contribute but for our purposes we’ll just admit that in general, the fatter a muscle is (i.e. the more fibers running in parallel) the more force it can produce.

Now, back to your question-working a muscle at 100% capacity isn’t necessary to produce an effective growth stimulus. In general, a review of the research shows us that the rate of hypertrophy is greatest when the loads are between 65% - 85% of one’s 1 repetition maximum (1RM). It is of interest that you don’t see a linear dose-response by increasing the weight. The seemingly equivalent results from widely varying weight loads demonstrate a “threshold” effect. As with other threshold-type models, once the threshold is crossed you see diminishing returns as you push things higher. The same is true for weight; heavier doesn’t necessarily mean more effective. The only time heavier equals better is when you haven’t reached the effective weight threshold for your specific situation.

This brings me to an important principle of HST which states that, “the effectiveness of any given load is determined by the condition of the tissue at the time the load is applied.” What this means is that, the load or effective weight threshold that one must cross to achieve hypertrophy is not static; it changes as the condition of the tissue changes. As the muscle tissue adapts to the previous loading sessions it pushes the threshold higher. Repeated training sessions cause the effective weight threshold to go up and reduce the effectiveness of any previous load. Increasing the weight loads beyond 85% during an HST cycle is an attempt to reach a load threshold that is ever increasing due to the repeated bout effect and actual growth that occurs during the cycle.

 

[Bryan Haycock]

Continued

if you're working within your predetermined capacity (90% of a 10RM load, for example), what happens when you start supplementing with beta alanine, creatine, N.O., and other pre-workout supplements and the exercises start getting really easy for that weight load? Is the answer simply add another set to create more micro-trauma for a given weight because you can handle the volume?

This isn’t because the supplements are making you stronger, they are simply masking your true level of conditioning. Beta-alanine may in fact reduce the growth stimulus is indeed alterations in pH are facilitating growth. Creatine does not interfere and in fact is a very useful supplement for hypertrophy. Nitric oxide products are neither here nor there.
If you find yourself able to perform more sets while using something you might as well go ahead and do more work. Nevertheless, there is still a threshold for work where beyond a certain volume, more is not better. I suggest shooting for 30-60 reps total for a muscle group and calling it good regardless of how good you still feel when you walk out of the gym.

I don't want to answer my own question, but as long as the weight keeps going up, hypertrophy will occur until the weight can't go up any more for a particular rep range, at that point you've plateaued? Or does RBE factor in earlier and stop your gains even though the weight continues to go up (say, 3-5 rep range)?

Yes and no. A person can reach their strength limits and continue to grow even though the weight loads do not increase significantly. This is the normal experience of most lifters who do not ever change what they do in the gym. They just come in, give it their all, and hope for the best. These people will continue to grow over time, but it is usually fairly slow.

So, why a person stops growing is a difficult question to answer. There are several factors; genetics, diet, hormones, training schedule, training details, supplements, age, and there are probably more. But I think it’s too simplistic to say that if you aren’t lifting more weight today than you were the day before yesterday that you aren’t growing.

Yes, if the weight never get’s heavier, the potency of the growth stimulus decreases. And if it doesn’t reach the threshold you
created by being so consistent, you will simply hold steady without growing. That’s why with HST we’ll incorporate eccentric work which allows one to do reps with weight that’s heavier than they can lift. Strategic deconditioning is also an attempt to re-sensitize the tissue, thereby relieving some of the necessity to have the weights getting ever heavier in a linear fashion.

 

[ZAK1]

Thanks Bryan that was a useful read. I've just started my first HST cycle.

 

[slowgrower]

Thank you very much, Bryan. You went above and beyond in answering my questions I was worrying for a bit that my post was going to be ignored, because I felt it had some good questions when comparing other routines and the things espoused on other websites. Supplements are pushed so hard in this industry/hobby, and I can personally attest to the quality of my workouts using, for example, Jack3d versus not. When I do take Jack3d, I feel like my capacity for work and motivation increases 200%... and I wondered... if you went to find your maxes on or off creatine, beta alanine, etc, how much would it skew your results...

I guess, in the end, the HST system/methodology/principles work best when you eliminate other variables, ie, supplements. If you find your maxes while supplementing, it seems you must keep taking them during your whole cycle, otherwise it throws off the whole loading mechanism... or at least that is what I would deduce. An argument could be made for starting supplements in the 5s, so that when it came time to extend and push for new 5 rep maxes, supplements would help out there.

 

[Bryan Haycock]

HST and supplements

The reason you feel like a tiger after taking Jack3d is because of the following ingredients:
- Caffeine
- Methylhexaneamine (a.k.a dimethylamylamine)
- Schizandrol A

Caffeine and Methylhexaneamine are both drugs and act as CNS stimulants. Schizandrol A is an extract from Schizandra chinensis and alters dopamine metabolism in the brain.

Arginine Alpha-Ketoglutarate, Creatine Monohydrate, and Beta Alanine have nothing to do with how you "feel" after taking it.

As far as taking supplement with HST there is no reason not to take supplements that may support your gains. Protein, leucine, creatine, omega-3s, and even HMB are probably a good idea if you have the extra cash.

Taking stimulants before training is a mixed bag. If you get used to always having your fix before training it soon becomes difficult to train without it. But that is just how it goes with stimulants.

 

[slowgrower]

Hi again Bryan, I wanted to discuss with you about the following quote:

This isn’t because the supplements are making you stronger, they are simply masking your true level of conditioning. Beta-alanine may in fact reduce the growth stimulus is indeed alterations in pH are facilitating growth. Creatine does not interfere and in fact is a very useful supplement for hypertrophy. Nitric oxide products are neither here nor there.
If you find yourself able to perform more sets while using something you might as well go ahead and do more work. Nevertheless, there is still a threshold for work where beyond a certain volume, more is not better. I suggest shooting for 30-60 reps total for a muscle group and calling it good regardless of how good you still feel when you walk out of the gym.

After re-reading some of your documentation about what specifically causes hypertrophy (http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?12725-The-basics-of-HST), step 3 is what made me wonder if that's what you're referring to in the above quote. "ph and oxidative stress must be acutely increased". If beta alanine buffers lactic acid and ph within the muscle, allowing you to get 1-3 more reps (depending on your rep range), you allude that this reduces the growth stimulus. I was curious (and searched pubmed unsuccessfully) if there were any studies that compared hypertrophy within groups supplementing with beta alanine vs not? Also, would the additional microtrauma caused by the additional reps that beta alanine allows give a larger growth stimulus if working out with near maximal weight for a give rep range?

I think I can see your frame of reference. Within a system like HST, where you're using submaximal loads and stopping at a certain rep number, supplementing with beta alanine might sufficiently buffer the lactic acid output that would prevent the ph drop from occuring and thus reducing the growth stimulus that might occur under the program naturally... right?

 

[LDU]

Great explanation Bryan, thanks again for the time and quality you put into your information