HST

Joe.Muscle

Active Member
Hey guys...I have been a member here for a while.

And even though I am a regular I am not quote "one of the science guys"...although I can understand way more than I ever dreamed I could 3 years ago!

I often remember when I first joined the website a lot of the guys including Bryan himself would say that this is what reseach shows us until proven different.

My question to some of the more advanced "science" members is what has changed?

Or better yet...has anything changed on the research side that proves different from when HST first became popular.

The only thing that I can think of is Strategic Decondition "SD" has been though over several different times and as far as I know Bryan still supports it very much so...but some others have there doubts on 2 weeks or so of SD.

Has there been any new research over the years to change any of our original readings and beliefs?

Discuss....
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Joe

From my honest point of view, no, HST itself has not changed but some new additions have come to the party and new light has somehow been shed such as Max-stim, which proved to be an excellent alternative to the negatives.

The fact that simple, mostly compound-type programs work best is not a new fact but nevertheless one that takes people time to realize and accept, that incluided me
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All in all, IMO, HST still is what it was always set up to be.

More opinions?
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For me personally , exploration of "alternative spins" on HST (example- my current 10,8,5,3 cycle) has basically convinced me that HST as presented in it's most basic vanilla/simplify and win format can be tweaked but not necessarily bettered. While this can be usefull to "personalize" things and alleviate staleness I have come to believe that 15,10,5 does actually make the most sense (I reserve the right to continue 3's in lieu of negatives tho!).
As for SD (and again just MY PERSONAL
OPINING), I have no question of it's necessity and value just perhaps a slight confusion over the way it's presented as far as what it actually is/does. "SD "does have an official ring to it that "9-14 days off" does seem to lack. But regardless of it's claims it is a vital and necessary part of any progression.
Overall I think time bears out that HST is highly effective and "tweaking" usually will just prove to the "tweaker" that although HST may be a hodgepodge of compromises it's the most BALANCED hodgepodge possible for hypertrophy and tweaking although fun is not "bettering". IMHO of course.
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i would have thought with so many frequency studies showing no difference in hypertrophy between 2 and 3 workouts a week, but greater strength gains on 2 workouts a week, that most sci guys would now recommend 2 workouts per week over 3.

sci guys? am i right?
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Lets say i do 2 workouts per week instead of 3. Should i make more reps per workout or should i keep the reps range per workout the same?
 
Keep the overall volume for the week the same. So divide your weekly volume into two workouts instead of three.
 
Warning: super long, rambling post about hypertrophy.

In the spring I had a really good exchange with Ron (NWLifter) concerning hypertrophy stuff, and my thoughts lately have often drifted back to that exchange, including the idea of "novelty" in terms of stimulation to muscle tissue, RBE, and the whole shebang.

In that sense, I've been going over the questions and steps that led Bryan to develop HST in the first place, remembering some of the original discussions back in 2002, which is why this thread jogged my thoughts.

Along those lines, I honestly feel there's a very definitive pattern people's training careers follow. During one's initial training years, a lot of gains in both strength and size are made. Assuming you push yourself to lift heavier objects in general and eat enough, a lot of one's results happen during this time period.

However, at SOME point, a pattern seems to emerge in most trainees. That pattern, which has been the object of my obsession, is this dilemma:

During one's initial years, growth very much seems to follow increases in training load, and those increases in training load are a direct result of getting stronger. Your "strength ceiling" is raised over time by an accumulation of muscle tissue, and people will generally notice that any changes in strength are relatively permanent.

However, at some point, the fun and games seem to stop and people plateau. Now, plateaus are a reality of training at all levels, and people will tend to accumulate more strength/muscle here and there, but more intermittently past that noobie stage.

MANY people, however, eventually end up in kind of an odd, vicious cycle. I've found myself in this cycle and am still attempting to escape it.

The cycle is basically characterized by an inability to add muscle mass WITHOUT resorting to chronic overeating, an inability to RETAIN increases in strength post training cycle, and an inability to hold more muscle mass when actually lean. I believe all of these are related to the same fundamental problem.

That fundamental problem, I think (i.e. this is all just my humble opinion), is that, for one reason or another, our TRAINING is not actually making us grow, is at best providing somewhat better partitioning when purposefully overfeeding.

So what happens is that we wind up in a bizarre cycle of strength and weight gain and loss if we actually try to stay lean. Some compensate by not worrying about the lean part - if you get indefinitely fatter, you will allow yourself to get indefinitely stronger, providing the illusion of unlimited progress. If/when they actually decide to get LEGITIMATELY lean again, many are surprised that most/all their gained muscle and strength seems to disappear.

Now, getting fatter will in and of itself add muscle tissue, and training alongside this will likely help partitioning. So your "ceiling of strength" can increase as a direct consequence of this. But if you are driving muscle gain with food intake, then there does seem a certain logic/symmetry to these gains dissipating when you attempt to diet back off the fat, and this seems to track extremely well with people's experience.

Additionally, our gains in strength from a given training cycle (5 x 5, HST, or whatever) WITHOUT the above occurring (i.e. even if you don't purposefully drive strength with food intake) tend to wind up neural in nature. As Siff points out in Supertraining, strength gains that occur alongside structural (muscle) gain tend to be far more long lasting than strength gains that are largely due to neural magic. If you have ever experienced very rapid losses in strength from a break, SD, or whatever you'd like to call it, I have a sneaking suspicion you fall into the above category.

So what is the "fix?" Do SOMETHING in our training that directly results in an increase in muscle mass without RELYING on excess food intake. Yes, you have to eat enough no matter what, but when you attempt to make your progress drive adaptation (i.e. if I eat enough and keep slapping weight on the bar, good things are bound to happen), I believe the above scenario tends to play out for many, many, many trainees.

What is that something that actually allows training to induce the necessary changes? I don't know, but I do think Bryan was attempting to answer that question by introducing strategic deconditioning and relating it to the RBE. Ignoring terminology for a second, muscle tissue is, first and foremost, tension-sensitive, so the idea was that chronically exposing a muscle to a similar stimulus (in this case, persistently similar levels of tension) will quickly eliminate its ability to respond and restructure itself. As Bryan himself put it many years ago, he needed a way to grow bigger without first getting stronger. Why? To avoid the vicious cycle above, I think, to allow adaptation to drive progress instead of the other way around. If this works, you WILL get stronger anyways, but as a direct consequence of holding more contractile tissue - the whole "ceiling of strength" thing described above.

In this case, SD was the answer of taking the "protective coating" off of muscle, and the rapidly escalating loads were the "novelty" that would, in principle, keep triggering growth over and over again. The frequency recommendations were based on attempting to provide an optimal backdrop for this process to occur.

So, 5 years later, was Bryan's answer correct? I honestly still don't know. While a lot of people do find success with the default HST template, I've seen Bryan drop "hints" that I think would be more fully fleshed out in his book that higher volume for more advanced/trained individuals would be of great utility.

Bryan, for example, follows a 6 day a week upper/lower split. Why? More total volume per body part, both acutely and weekly. It's not implausible that Bryan could have been right all along, but a lot of people aren't being "wowed" because they aren't doing enough on a per-session basis to actually trigger growth.

So yah, there's a whole heaping helping of thoughts on the topic of muscle growth and the state of HST.
 
If people could survive it, I'd love to see experiments like this:

Training each muscle/exercise 2-3 times weekly, do 2 week blocks ala traditional HST of something like this:

5 sets of 10 reps (~15 RM at a guess)
7 sets of 7 reps (~10 RM at a guess)
10 sets of 5 reps (~8 RM at a guess)

Or just simplify things incredibly and make a mandate of 50 total reps per exercise with mandatory load increases with no pre-set set/rep pattern.

This would almost definitely require an upper/lower split (so either 4 or 6 days per week), but I think it would answer a lot of questions about whether SD is really "working," and just how valuable the rapid increases in load are. While it might be overkill, there would be little to no doubt you are doing enough acutely to grow (i.e. this uncertainty, which has always bugged me, is removed from the equation), so I'd be really curious to see what happens as a consequence.
 
Michael, a couple of points.

When you are relying exclusively on overeating for mass gains, then it's reasonable to expect those same mass gains to be lost when under-eating. Such is not the case with weight training. The ratio of muscle to fat gain with and without weight training is different. Muscle mass gain is greater with training than without. Obviously, training has an effect on muscle/fat ratio. Considering the effect of training on muscle mass gains, it's reasonable to expect muscle to remain even when under-eating. What is not reasonable is to expect all the muscle gained to remain. Perhaps it's a question of our perception of body composition and what's a healthy ratio. Perhaps 8% body fat is so unhealthy that strength should be expected to be lower compared to peak form at 15-20% body fat. I don't know exactly what a healthy body composition is, I merely point out that healthy is a function of body composition, not of absolute size. I also want to point out that our ideal is perhaps a little skewed by all the hype.


Concerning improvements to HST, I see nothing happening from now to the end of time. Basically, the principles behind HST are it. Mechanical load, load progression, frequency, chronic growth environment, etc. Once those fundamental principles were discovered, little else remained. The cat's out of the bag. We can tweak it to suit our personal profile but without mechanical load or load progression or sufficient frequency, growth will simply not occur as well as if all those principles are put to work.

Even when new research comes up to prove this or that about such and such, the same principles are just as relevant now as they were then. We've read this and that about such and such? No matter, the old ways still work just as well. Those principles are based on our own biology. We haven't changed since we first learned anything about training and growth. We aren't about to change our physical form significantly enough in the near future to warrant a change in the method we use to grow this same form. And when we do change, we'll learn how to grow soon enough.
 
<div>
(mikeynov @ Aug. 11 2007,15:00)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If people could survive it, I'd love to see experiments like this:

Training each muscle/exercise 2-3 times weekly, do 2 week blocks ala traditional HST of something like this:

5 sets of 10 reps (~15 RM at a guess)
7 sets of 7 reps (~10 RM at a guess)
10 sets of 5 reps (~8 RM at a guess)

Or just simplify things incredibly and make a mandate of 50 total reps per exercise with mandatory load increases with no pre-set set/rep pattern.

This would almost definitely require an upper/lower split (so either 4 or 6 days per week), but I think it would answer a lot of questions about whether SD is really &quot;working,&quot; and just how valuable the rapid increases in load are.  While it might be overkill, there would be little to no doubt you are doing enough acutely to grow (i.e. this uncertainty, which has always bugged me, is removed from the equation), so I'd be really curious to see what happens as a consequence.</div>
Great 2 Post Mikey,

I actually have thought about everything you just said and actually IMO agree with you however...I lack the science background too much to be able to post something like that and actually make sense.
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If what you believe is true...this would make sense as to why a lot of veterans in the iron game who still don't have a clue to how to properly lift make gains. And that would be from the Right Now of consistent volume over time.

I have tried 50 reps and it was not bad at all until you started getting below 8 reps or so...then it was a bitch and very hard and long winded workout.

Again I am not a Labcoat...but with some of the studies that have been out for a while....its seems a mean average of 40 to 45...maybe even 50 reps produces great results.

However I just read a study this weekend that showed two groups of trained indivduals one group was using 2 sets of 10 reps (3) times a week and the other group was using 3 sets of 10 reps (2) times a week and there was not much difference in results...practically the same.

This study was saying basically to get in your volume per muscle group over a week basis...and as long as you get in enough volume wether its 1 day per bodypart or 3 you will yield results???

All that being said...its easier to find Osama Bin Laden in a damn cave...than to find Bryan lately so he could post with some depth to the questions...hehe
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i dont think anyone disagrees that Mechanical load, load progression, chronic growth environment, are the keys to hypertrophy and strength.

however as joe points out above with yet another study that shows no difference with 2 workouts a week compared to 3. the frequency part is on shakey ground IMO.

Dans site has a frequency article in it where he says 2 per week provides slightly greater strength gains, but similar hypertrophy. and it has the references for his beliefs. although he stated on another thread that he believes 3x week is better
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i think vicious said dc (2x week)was better overall for hypertrophy that standard hst(3x week) because of the greater volume/metabolic work in each dc workout.

although i may be confused and totally wrong
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perhaps theres such confusion amoung studies due to individual subject differences, and this is why some studies show 3x week better, while others show 2x week  
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sci guys please discuss this problem once and for all, drawing from all the available latest studies. and come to some sort of official concensus. please  
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MikeyNov ,

Awesomely put , I agree in essence with all you said . Although I might have said it differently , I couln't have said it better. Are you aware of this type of &quot;long term training planning/assessment&quot;?(see link)


http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/pathofchampions.html



It makes a lot of sense (to me) and fits in with what you are saying . Very curious to get YOUR thoughts on this...
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Concerning mechanical load.

The whole concept is misleading. We could conclude erroneously that loading the muscle continuously for a longer period would stimulate more growth response. Something doesn't look right. If you've ever seen a guy holding on to a weight for a time perhaps thinking he'll do some growing, that's what I'm talking about.

Change in load. A different concept.

At first, this concept could be mistaken for another principle, load progression. Because progressing the load from one workout to the next is indeed a change in load. And it is said that load progression is intended to mitigate the repeat bout effect. Applying mechanical load to a muscle is a change in load. From no load to some load. Maintaining the load on the muscle continuously is not a change in load. Continuous load could stimulate some response but growth is not it. For a growth response to be stimulated, a change in load is required.

Consider a quartz crystal. Applying pressure to a quartz crystal will produce a short burst of electricity. We call this mechanism piezoelectricity. Continuing to apply the same pressure to the crystal will not produce continuous electricity. Perhaps it's lost its potential for electric production after the first original load is applied. After the change in load. Remove the pressure. I should note here that removing the pressure is a change in load as well. As we remove the pressure, the crystal returns to its original form and recovers its original integrity. Perhaps it also recovers its potential for producing an electric response. We can observe this by applying pressure again, by changing the load again. As we do, another burst of electricity is produced. We can conclude that for pressure to produce an electric response, it must be applied in an on/off fashion. The same principle applies to muscle and the response we get from mechanical load.

To elicit a growth response in muscle, we must apply mechanical load in an on/off fashion. We can conclude that it is not merely mechanical load that stimulates a growth response, instead it's the change in load that stimulates a growth response.


A misconception, compound movements.

It is said that compound movements should be used to maximize the effects of mechanical load on as many muscles as possible. This explanation is not so clear. It becomes clear when we look at other principles and at the underlying purpose. The purpose of HST is muscle growth. The overall method to fulfill this purpose is to create a new environment, a chronic environment. In order to do so, we must apply the load with sufficient frequency. In order to accommodate the increased frequency, we must reduce something else. We reduce &quot;per workout&quot; volume. Another way to reduce volume is to use compound movements only. We should use compound movements not merely to maximize the effects of mechanical load. Ultimately, we must use compound movements as a way to reduce volume to accommodate the increased frequency.
 
Mike

The concept of 50 reps as a target may just be the convincing argument at least for veteran trainees, as it requires higher volume (no doubt) to produce some hypertrophy along with the higher intake of fuel (food, grub ,whatever you like to call it).

I am currently using 2 x week training and am seeing some effects such as strength coming back, creatine absence seems to be a slight problem though, as i feel about 20% difference without it, but that is maybe just me.

I like the 5 x 5 approach, but darn 10 x 5, that can only be done by an ultra simplified program. Some time or other I will don the labcoat and give it a bash!
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so what about all these studies showing little difference between 1 set vs 3sets in both trained and untrained athletes? (otto, carpinelli)

they cant all be wrong?
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New study in Mensfitness this month shows were total sets over 3 days is no better than 2 days?

I don't like Muscle mags for research but they site there references.
 
Well hopefully my story can shed some light.
Ive been training on and off for the past five years. I've done several cycles of HST but have only really been trainig seriously for the past year or so. Over the last five years ive found due to HST that i tend to benefit from higher frequency and highish reps such as around ten or more.

Last summer i trained using a HIT program. It consisted of picking a few compund excercises for each bodypart and training it to failure once every three days or so. This was the first program that i really eat on. I began with a two week build up to my maxes and and then continued pushing personal records for another six or seven weeks or so. I managed to take my bench 10RM from around 160 to 200. (I had similar gains in other lifts). Which is a pretty big jump considering how long ive been training. The reason for this i can attribute to the fact that i put on about two stone over the course of ten weeks.

However i noticed rapid gains in size during the first month or so and zilch for the next six weeks. Even though i was still progressing the load (and using decent volume 20 total reps per bodypart and gainig weight i was just getting fatter and fatter (and man
was i fat).

The whole idea of HST is that if im using higher loads than before i should get bigger but that just didn't happen. The only difference i can see between the workouts earlier and those when i was really going balls to the wall were that i inadvertently was using much less time under tension. In the beginning i was using a very controlled eccentric taking bout 3-4 seconds. By the end of the cycle i was just doing whatever i could to get that weight up sacrificing a longer eccentric for just lifting a heavier load.

However ive hear that many people on this board discredit a long eccentric so i don't know. Many somebody could shed light on my experience as im just getting back into serious trainig again.
 
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