If u like hst, ur sure to like this
- Thread starter need2eat
- Start date
jvroig
Super Moderator
Except that it is rather blatantly stupid here:
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">By keeping your muscles guessing you will be providing the optimal environment for optimal growth. Variety in your sets/reps will also keep training fresh for you. Nothing is more boring than 3x10 reps week after week.</div>
Muscles + Guessing = Hypertrophy?
So if I make them guess by, say, doing my 5RM first for two weeks, then following it up with my 10RM for a week, then 8RM, then 15RM, and continue making them guess for months on end, that will mean better hypertrophy?
Yeah, didn't think so.
Because it's not about making them guess. It's about staying ahead of RBE. It's never about sets/reps (well, maybe about total reps done at the end of the workout). It's about the load, total work done, and your conditioning level. So screw the rep scheme. As long as your loads increase, and you do enough reps, it's all good at the end of the day.
Regards,
-JV
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">By keeping your muscles guessing you will be providing the optimal environment for optimal growth. Variety in your sets/reps will also keep training fresh for you. Nothing is more boring than 3x10 reps week after week.</div>
Muscles + Guessing = Hypertrophy?
So if I make them guess by, say, doing my 5RM first for two weeks, then following it up with my 10RM for a week, then 8RM, then 15RM, and continue making them guess for months on end, that will mean better hypertrophy?
Yeah, didn't think so.
Because it's not about making them guess. It's about staying ahead of RBE. It's never about sets/reps (well, maybe about total reps done at the end of the workout). It's about the load, total work done, and your conditioning level. So screw the rep scheme. As long as your loads increase, and you do enough reps, it's all good at the end of the day.
Regards,
-JV
Actually, its strength and hypertrophy.
Someone else give the same argument your providing and I will offer the same answer.
"If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, then it must be....."
I think most people use the term guessing to keep it simple, when in reality, your providing a continuous-progressive load, which as you stated, can be done via any program.
You offered some contradiction.
If you alter your sets/reps, you do alter the overall load/work done, so to say thats not possible, seems strange to me. It cannot all be about adding poundage, cause everyone hits a wall eventually and then you manipulate the ........exactly.....sets reps....
What sparked your urge to go off on reps scheme?
Someone else give the same argument your providing and I will offer the same answer.
"If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, then it must be....."
I think most people use the term guessing to keep it simple, when in reality, your providing a continuous-progressive load, which as you stated, can be done via any program.
You offered some contradiction.
If you alter your sets/reps, you do alter the overall load/work done, so to say thats not possible, seems strange to me. It cannot all be about adding poundage, cause everyone hits a wall eventually and then you manipulate the ........exactly.....sets reps....
What sparked your urge to go off on reps scheme?
jvroig
Super Moderator
Well, rep schemes aren't much important to hypertrophy. If it's about strength, then you can say whatever you want and I won't bother arguing with it.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If you alter your sets/reps, you do alter the overall load/work done, so to say thats not possible, seems strange to me. It cannot all be about adding poundage, cause everyone hits a wall eventually and then you manipulate the ........exactly.....sets reps....</div>
Well, the reps aren't the be-all and end-all. Total work done means the loads used + total reps made.
Simply varying the rep scheme won't necessarily help you, because as in the example I made above, if you don't do it smartly, you may not end up with the "optimum" environment for hypertrophy as he claimed. If the weights aren't increasing over time, then you can change the rep scheme all you want but that won't make you stay ahead of RBE.
And if you hit a wall, you SD. Or decondition if strength training, but it also never hurts to do a little SD. You can call that "varying the rep scheme", but like the article, it is misleading because taking that at it's face value means as long as I change the rep scheme, regardless of how when I increase/decrease the weight, I'm good to go for hypertrophy, which isn't the case.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">"If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, then it must be....."
</div>
But it's really nothing like HST at all... no SD, no progressive loading (saying "vary the rep scheme to make the muscles guess" is not progressive loading, as it could mean just randomly changing the rep scheme with no specific plan in mind). It just happened to say frequent training, which is so common now.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">If you alter your sets/reps, you do alter the overall load/work done, so to say thats not possible, seems strange to me. It cannot all be about adding poundage, cause everyone hits a wall eventually and then you manipulate the ........exactly.....sets reps....</div>
Well, the reps aren't the be-all and end-all. Total work done means the loads used + total reps made.
Simply varying the rep scheme won't necessarily help you, because as in the example I made above, if you don't do it smartly, you may not end up with the "optimum" environment for hypertrophy as he claimed. If the weights aren't increasing over time, then you can change the rep scheme all you want but that won't make you stay ahead of RBE.
And if you hit a wall, you SD. Or decondition if strength training, but it also never hurts to do a little SD. You can call that "varying the rep scheme", but like the article, it is misleading because taking that at it's face value means as long as I change the rep scheme, regardless of how when I increase/decrease the weight, I'm good to go for hypertrophy, which isn't the case.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">"If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, then it must be....."
</div>
But it's really nothing like HST at all... no SD, no progressive loading (saying "vary the rep scheme to make the muscles guess" is not progressive loading, as it could mean just randomly changing the rep scheme with no specific plan in mind). It just happened to say frequent training, which is so common now.
Ok, hold on a second...haha
Your emphasizing that rep schemes do jack crap and have nothing to do with HST. Which again is odd to me...
as a specific rep scheme is the bulk of HST, its actually quite specific. 15, 10, 5 rest or SD and repeat. No mention of sets and only mention of poundage is, make small increases in increments in each block.
now your telling me, do what ya like, if you reach a peak, SD and repeat your whatever rep cycle, as long as your end goal is X pounds more than your last best. According to "STYLE", your the man and if that true, then you've just invited me to drop the 15 and 10's altogether, and just do the 5's which I prefer?
I only ask to learn.
Your emphasizing that rep schemes do jack crap and have nothing to do with HST. Which again is odd to me...
as a specific rep scheme is the bulk of HST, its actually quite specific. 15, 10, 5 rest or SD and repeat. No mention of sets and only mention of poundage is, make small increases in increments in each block.
now your telling me, do what ya like, if you reach a peak, SD and repeat your whatever rep cycle, as long as your end goal is X pounds more than your last best. According to "STYLE", your the man and if that true, then you've just invited me to drop the 15 and 10's altogether, and just do the 5's which I prefer?
I only ask to learn.
And how do you figure that?
If I spread the 5's out over 6 weeks or 18 workouts, break each workout down, making my new 5rm 10 lbs more than my last 5rm best and working backwards with increments, whats gonna stop me from achieving it?
jvroig stated rep schemes were unimportant and this would provide a progressive increase.
If I spread the 5's out over 6 weeks or 18 workouts, break each workout down, making my new 5rm 10 lbs more than my last 5rm best and working backwards with increments, whats gonna stop me from achieving it?
jvroig stated rep schemes were unimportant and this would provide a progressive increase.
<div>
(leegee38 @ Nov. 25 2006,15:41)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">They don't look terribly similar to me ...
The number one principle for HST is progressive load, and that is why the reps go down as the weight goes up.</div>
When I first searched to set up my routine, seemd 1X15, 2X10 and 3X5 was suggested.
As a matter of fact, this is a direct quote from Mr. Haycock aka the founder
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> increasing the number of sets as reps decrease</div>
Which was his response to whether sets should remain constant or change, he was for the above.
Thats not progressive set/rep thinking to me.
To add weight each workout should be a given, no?
(leegee38 @ Nov. 25 2006,15:41)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">They don't look terribly similar to me ...
The number one principle for HST is progressive load, and that is why the reps go down as the weight goes up.</div>
When I first searched to set up my routine, seemd 1X15, 2X10 and 3X5 was suggested.
As a matter of fact, this is a direct quote from Mr. Haycock aka the founder
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"> increasing the number of sets as reps decrease</div>
Which was his response to whether sets should remain constant or change, he was for the above.
Thats not progressive set/rep thinking to me.
To add weight each workout should be a given, no?
Joe.Muscle
Active Member
I haven't read all the posts...but I agree with JV on this one.
If you change reps often to keep the muscle "guessing" then it can be very productive...if in fact as JV said it equals more work!
More work or progressive load how ever you want to put it is what makes a muscle grow.
The problem with the changing of the rep schemes is if you dont follow your total output of work closely what feels effective might not be...b/c more sets with less weight might not equal more work done.
I actually like changing sets and reps often...b/c of the boring factor however it does require a lot more micro managing of a workout to make sure your work increases each workout
If you change reps often to keep the muscle "guessing" then it can be very productive...if in fact as JV said it equals more work!
More work or progressive load how ever you want to put it is what makes a muscle grow.
The problem with the changing of the rep schemes is if you dont follow your total output of work closely what feels effective might not be...b/c more sets with less weight might not equal more work done.
I actually like changing sets and reps often...b/c of the boring factor however it does require a lot more micro managing of a workout to make sure your work increases each workout
Ok...there is no disagreement that set/rep/load = work and it should be progressive...
...as a matter of fact the original link, only suggested manipulating the set rep scheme to offer a hypertrophy and strength training day. Of which it suggested you vary, every other workout.
Differences, HST suggest you keep the same exercises, the link suggested you use specific exercises, per your purpose, aka hypertrophy or strength workout.
HST, you ensure you muscles get a varying load per workout. The link also suggests this, however, with HST you use a progressive two week block with the same exercises, the link, youd have to progressively add weight per exercise, as they vary per workout. It would definitely ensure you introduce a new load per workout and no doubt burn out quicker and need a break or SD in a shorter period of time. However, if you take the notion that rest is where you grow and exercise is merely stimulus, then this might not be so bad.
Hst, you progressively add weight per your two week set/rep scheme/block.
The link, you progressively add per workout, as the set/reps vary every other workout but remain the same per its intent, hypertrophy or strength bias.
I am taking the understanding that the weight should be progressively added per workout anyway, if not, then whats the point?
So which is best and why?
Yes, I'
m hard headed.
...as a matter of fact the original link, only suggested manipulating the set rep scheme to offer a hypertrophy and strength training day. Of which it suggested you vary, every other workout.
Differences, HST suggest you keep the same exercises, the link suggested you use specific exercises, per your purpose, aka hypertrophy or strength workout.
HST, you ensure you muscles get a varying load per workout. The link also suggests this, however, with HST you use a progressive two week block with the same exercises, the link, youd have to progressively add weight per exercise, as they vary per workout. It would definitely ensure you introduce a new load per workout and no doubt burn out quicker and need a break or SD in a shorter period of time. However, if you take the notion that rest is where you grow and exercise is merely stimulus, then this might not be so bad.
Hst, you progressively add weight per your two week set/rep scheme/block.
The link, you progressively add per workout, as the set/reps vary every other workout but remain the same per its intent, hypertrophy or strength bias.
I am taking the understanding that the weight should be progressively added per workout anyway, if not, then whats the point?
So which is best and why?
Yes, I'
HST is not 2 weeks of 15s, 2 weeks of 10s, 2 weeks of 5s, etc. I think this is where the confusion is. The standard setup of 15s, 10s, 5s and negatives is just one way to apply HST principles. HST is the principles outlined in the article: mechanical load, progressive load, chronic stimulus and strategic deconditioning. The standard setup is there because it is the easiest way to use those principles to construct a workout.
So what your saying, apply enough load to create stimulus, and progressively add weight, when you max out, take a one to two week break aka SD.
Call me crazy but these "principles" are the same principles used on any other program...with one exception...many do not recommend you stop training altogether or decondition, they might suggest you drop the lbs and continue with progression. HST is the only ive seen to suggest total body three times a week, I'll give it that.
I actually couldn't figure out what made HST so special when I started and I have to say, I still don't know and Im finishing up my second "cycle". I thought there was a method to the madness in the 15/10/5 two week block with negatives but now the more experienced fourm members are telling me this isn't the case....so...Im right were I started. All Im getting from the 15 and 10's is unwanted cardio.
Am I correct in what your saying Totentanz?
Correct me if im wrong but strength training usually involves, many set/reps with moderate weight that progress to less set/reps and heavier weight.... another reason I didn't catch the differences of HST and strength training, which suprisingly seem to be popular today, as means of bodybuilding.
Call me crazy but these "principles" are the same principles used on any other program...with one exception...many do not recommend you stop training altogether or decondition, they might suggest you drop the lbs and continue with progression. HST is the only ive seen to suggest total body three times a week, I'll give it that.
I actually couldn't figure out what made HST so special when I started and I have to say, I still don't know and Im finishing up my second "cycle". I thought there was a method to the madness in the 15/10/5 two week block with negatives but now the more experienced fourm members are telling me this isn't the case....so...Im right were I started. All Im getting from the 15 and 10's is unwanted cardio.
Am I correct in what your saying Totentanz?
Correct me if im wrong but strength training usually involves, many set/reps with moderate weight that progress to less set/reps and heavier weight.... another reason I didn't catch the differences of HST and strength training, which suprisingly seem to be popular today, as means of bodybuilding.
haha..smart ass.
All the technical mumbo jumbo aside, its a quite simple routine, just looking at a basic routine. Throw in the fact you use your given rep max as a finishing point and increment backwards, its a no brainer.
No matter how you look at it, its progressive training, nothing new, it just emphasizes a rest period.
Feel free to respond directly to my questions and concerns, as I ask them for a reason.
All the technical mumbo jumbo aside, its a quite simple routine, just looking at a basic routine. Throw in the fact you use your given rep max as a finishing point and increment backwards, its a no brainer.
No matter how you look at it, its progressive training, nothing new, it just emphasizes a rest period.
Feel free to respond directly to my questions and concerns, as I ask them for a reason.
<div>
(need2eat @ Nov. 25 2006,23:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">HST is the only ive seen to suggest total body three times a week, I'll give it that.</div>
Most HIT programs would have you train with full-body workouts 3 x weekly - at least before you plateau!
HST is not magic. The principles are sound. They work. Apply them how you wish. It's simple because it doesn't need to be complicated.
HST does differ from strength programs because strength is not the focus. Of course there will be similarities because in general a bigger muscle is a stronger muscle. But most of the strength programs use loads that start at a much higher %age of your 1RM and therefore rep ranges are lower from the start.
As a suitably deconditioned muscle can grow using loads as low as around 65% of your 1RM, it makes sense to train using those loads. HST starts even lighter because the lighter/higher rep loads are good for joint and tendon health. You don't always have to do the 15s but it is encouraged. For an added benefit, 15RM w/os are also very tough on your cardio system.
I burn out sooner on a 5x5 program than I do on an HST program because I find it harder to manage fatigue as well.
(need2eat @ Nov. 25 2006,23:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">HST is the only ive seen to suggest total body three times a week, I'll give it that.</div>
Most HIT programs would have you train with full-body workouts 3 x weekly - at least before you plateau!
HST is not magic. The principles are sound. They work. Apply them how you wish. It's simple because it doesn't need to be complicated.
HST does differ from strength programs because strength is not the focus. Of course there will be similarities because in general a bigger muscle is a stronger muscle. But most of the strength programs use loads that start at a much higher %age of your 1RM and therefore rep ranges are lower from the start.
As a suitably deconditioned muscle can grow using loads as low as around 65% of your 1RM, it makes sense to train using those loads. HST starts even lighter because the lighter/higher rep loads are good for joint and tendon health. You don't always have to do the 15s but it is encouraged. For an added benefit, 15RM w/os are also very tough on your cardio system.
I burn out sooner on a 5x5 program than I do on an HST program because I find it harder to manage fatigue as well.
<div>
(need2eat @ Nov. 25 2006,23:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So what your saying, apply enough load to create stimulus, and progressively add weight, when you max out, take a one to two week break aka SD.
Call me crazy but these "principles" are the same principles used on any other program...with one exception...many do not recommend you stop training altogether or decondition, they might suggest you drop the lbs and continue with progression. HST is the only ive seen to suggest total body three times a week, I'll give it that.
I actually couldn't figure out what made HST so special when I started and I have to say, I still don't know and Im finishing up my second "cycle". I thought there was a method to the madness in the 15/10/5 two week block with negatives but now the more experienced fourm members are telling me this isn't the case....so...Im right were I started. All Im getting from the 15 and 10's is unwanted cardio.
Am I correct in what your saying Totentanz?
Correct me if im wrong but strength training usually involves, many set/reps with moderate weight that progress to less set/reps and heavier weight.... another reason I didn't catch the differences of HST and strength training, which suprisingly seem to be popular today, as means of bodybuilding.</div>
if you did what you said just did the 5s and increased the weight every time then that would be very much like most routines.
but by having the 15s,10s,5s, every time you get to the end of a 2wk meso-cycle the weight drops so you have built in fatigue management.
the 15s also flood the muscles with lactic acid which prepares them for the heavier weights.
10reps seem to build muscle for most people and a lot on here claim so does 15s.
(need2eat @ Nov. 25 2006,23:43)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So what your saying, apply enough load to create stimulus, and progressively add weight, when you max out, take a one to two week break aka SD.
Call me crazy but these "principles" are the same principles used on any other program...with one exception...many do not recommend you stop training altogether or decondition, they might suggest you drop the lbs and continue with progression. HST is the only ive seen to suggest total body three times a week, I'll give it that.
I actually couldn't figure out what made HST so special when I started and I have to say, I still don't know and Im finishing up my second "cycle". I thought there was a method to the madness in the 15/10/5 two week block with negatives but now the more experienced fourm members are telling me this isn't the case....so...Im right were I started. All Im getting from the 15 and 10's is unwanted cardio.
Am I correct in what your saying Totentanz?
Correct me if im wrong but strength training usually involves, many set/reps with moderate weight that progress to less set/reps and heavier weight.... another reason I didn't catch the differences of HST and strength training, which suprisingly seem to be popular today, as means of bodybuilding.</div>
if you did what you said just did the 5s and increased the weight every time then that would be very much like most routines.
but by having the 15s,10s,5s, every time you get to the end of a 2wk meso-cycle the weight drops so you have built in fatigue management.
the 15s also flood the muscles with lactic acid which prepares them for the heavier weights.
10reps seem to build muscle for most people and a lot on here claim so does 15s.
9to5lifter
New Member
HST is more than a "program", it is a sound training theory. It takes the guesswork out of training, because it tells you what to do at a given time in order to build muscle. So, you do not need to "up the intensity" or "constantly confuse the muscle" in order to grow. As long as you apply HST priciples, it's still HST.
JV merely states that the rep schemes are not important. You could do 17, 14, 11, 7, and 4 if you like, but not the other way around because of the RBE. Let's say that you are currently doing 4 sets of 5. You decide that it's time to "confuse the muscle", so you switch to 2 sets of 10. HST principles imply that this won't do you much good (hypertrophy-wise) because you are reducing the load (as well as the total work done), and you allow RBE to catch up with you.
The whole idea is to keep exposing the muscle to an environment conducive to hypertrophy. This means frequent workouts, as well as staying ahead of the RBE. How do we accomplish that? Simply by increasing the load over time. After your 5RM, you can work with negatives or clustering in order to use weights even higher that your 5RM. The whole "5RM" concept is basically a safety guideline, you can use your 4RM or 6RM if you like, it's simply that weights close to your 1RM can be somewhat dangerous (and very time-consuming). After the negatives, you simply can't increase the load anymore. So, you "call it a cycle" and you SD, before starting all over again. The SD is there in order to reverse some of the effects of RBE, so that you are able to grow with sub-max weights again.
It's not that confusing, and it doesn't need to be. But now I know what I have to do at any given stage of my training, provided that my goal is hypertrophy. I don't feel the need to change my workout every week, hoping that this will somehow allow me to "bust through plateaus". I don't need to change exercises every week to "keep the muscle guessing". In the end, this knowledge allows me to have faith in what I do and motivates me to keep doing it. And that, at least for me, is really priceless.
Regards,
Dimitris
JV merely states that the rep schemes are not important. You could do 17, 14, 11, 7, and 4 if you like, but not the other way around because of the RBE. Let's say that you are currently doing 4 sets of 5. You decide that it's time to "confuse the muscle", so you switch to 2 sets of 10. HST principles imply that this won't do you much good (hypertrophy-wise) because you are reducing the load (as well as the total work done), and you allow RBE to catch up with you.
The whole idea is to keep exposing the muscle to an environment conducive to hypertrophy. This means frequent workouts, as well as staying ahead of the RBE. How do we accomplish that? Simply by increasing the load over time. After your 5RM, you can work with negatives or clustering in order to use weights even higher that your 5RM. The whole "5RM" concept is basically a safety guideline, you can use your 4RM or 6RM if you like, it's simply that weights close to your 1RM can be somewhat dangerous (and very time-consuming). After the negatives, you simply can't increase the load anymore. So, you "call it a cycle" and you SD, before starting all over again. The SD is there in order to reverse some of the effects of RBE, so that you are able to grow with sub-max weights again.
It's not that confusing, and it doesn't need to be. But now I know what I have to do at any given stage of my training, provided that my goal is hypertrophy. I don't feel the need to change my workout every week, hoping that this will somehow allow me to "bust through plateaus". I don't need to change exercises every week to "keep the muscle guessing". In the end, this knowledge allows me to have faith in what I do and motivates me to keep doing it. And that, at least for me, is really priceless.
Regards,
Dimitris
Good post, 9 to 5.
And I'd say that if all need2eet is getting is cardio from the 15's, then you're not working heavy enough. Try starting at 75% and see.
JoeM - I don't know how you find your workouts "boring", but I'm anything BUT bored when I get going. I'd dread my workouts if I didn't love them.
And I'd say that if all need2eet is getting is cardio from the 15's, then you're not working heavy enough. Try starting at 75% and see.
JoeM - I don't know how you find your workouts "boring", but I'm anything BUT bored when I get going. I'd dread my workouts if I didn't love them.