scientific muscle
New Member
Shut up and lift you bunch of nerds.
I'm starting to become skeptical
- Thread starter Joe.Muscle
- Start date
scientific muscle
New Member
...just don't go overboard and get too fat when you bulk...I think we can all agree on that point.
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(quadancer @ Nov. 08 2007,19:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">C'mon Dan, shortcut!!! Just tell us what to do/eat/think!
Heheh, I doubt that there's much hope for partitioning us geezers out anyway!
</div>
do?
Lift
eat?
Food
think?
Lifting and Food
Geezers
, yup aging does change things. Especially for those like me who aren't genetically gifted, heck when they were passing out Body Builder genes I thought they said Bell Bottom Jeans and said no thanks I got some and they'll be out of style soon anyway
(quadancer @ Nov. 08 2007,19:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">C'mon Dan, shortcut!!! Just tell us what to do/eat/think!
Heheh, I doubt that there's much hope for partitioning us geezers out anyway!
do?
Lift
eat?
Food
think?
Lifting and Food
Geezers
Dan,
Yeah, we really went OT on Joe's thread. It went from my slow bulk suggestion to discussion of Lyle's research. In regards to what people around her say a bulk is; I look at it like this way:
Bulk: 500 kcal above maintenance level
Slow Bulk: 250 kcal over (efficient at lower body fat % OR over a long time period such as 1+ years)
Slow Cut: 250 kcal under (rather inefficient 90% of the time)
Cut: 500 kcal under
The P-ratio seems to be fairly predetermined by your body's physiological state, but when I read Lyle's research about tricking the brain to think leptin levels are A-OK by increasing dopamine levels -- I immediately thought about fish oil, specifically DHA. I really think I have jumped on to Sears' bandwagon about it being the miracle "drug" of the 21st Century.
I am interested in reading more of the science actually, but not too fast as I couldn't dive into the hardcore chemistry. It's been three years since I have taken a chemistry or physiology course. Nevertheless, I was interested in biochemistry and everything that was truly going on in our bodies at the time.
Bluejacket,
As always -- great insight. I don't believe a sudden change in P-ratio (from 33% to 83% like in your example) is possible, but bumping it up a few percent here and there ever so slowly doesn't seem like a crazy thought. This is just my logic speaking, and you know where my thoughts are in regards to body manipulation via diet.
Yeah, we really went OT on Joe's thread. It went from my slow bulk suggestion to discussion of Lyle's research. In regards to what people around her say a bulk is; I look at it like this way:
Bulk: 500 kcal above maintenance level
Slow Bulk: 250 kcal over (efficient at lower body fat % OR over a long time period such as 1+ years)
Slow Cut: 250 kcal under (rather inefficient 90% of the time)
Cut: 500 kcal under
The P-ratio seems to be fairly predetermined by your body's physiological state, but when I read Lyle's research about tricking the brain to think leptin levels are A-OK by increasing dopamine levels -- I immediately thought about fish oil, specifically DHA. I really think I have jumped on to Sears' bandwagon about it being the miracle "drug" of the 21st Century.
I am interested in reading more of the science actually, but not too fast as I couldn't dive into the hardcore chemistry. It's been three years since I have taken a chemistry or physiology course. Nevertheless, I was interested in biochemistry and everything that was truly going on in our bodies at the time.
Bluejacket,
As always -- great insight. I don't believe a sudden change in P-ratio (from 33% to 83% like in your example) is possible, but bumping it up a few percent here and there ever so slowly doesn't seem like a crazy thought. This is just my logic speaking, and you know where my thoughts are in regards to body manipulation via diet.
Hmmm. I'd wonder if the percentages would be close; if your P-ratio went up, say 2%, would your BF/LM ratio alter 2% by then? Or would it just be a 2% difference in change ratio when dieting or bulking? No need to answer; just speculating.
I doubt Joe minds too much for the hijacks.
This has been one of the better reads of the century!
I doubt Joe minds too much for the hijacks.
This has been one of the better reads of the century!
<div>
(quadancer @ Nov. 09 2007,06:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hmmm. I'd wonder if the percentages would be close; if your P-ratio went up, say 2%, would your BF/LM ratio alter 2% by then? Or would it just be a 2% difference in change ratio when dieting or bulking? No need to answer; just speculating.
I doubt Joe minds too much for the hijacks.
This has been one of the better reads of the century!</div>
Just remember that what a 2% shift in P-ratio actually would mean......a 2% shift in energy shuttling. Not body mass.
(quadancer @ Nov. 09 2007,06:40)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hmmm. I'd wonder if the percentages would be close; if your P-ratio went up, say 2%, would your BF/LM ratio alter 2% by then? Or would it just be a 2% difference in change ratio when dieting or bulking? No need to answer; just speculating.
I doubt Joe minds too much for the hijacks.
This has been one of the better reads of the century!</div>
Just remember that what a 2% shift in P-ratio actually would mean......a 2% shift in energy shuttling. Not body mass.
Morgoth the Dark Enemy
New Member
<div>
(colby2152 @ Nov. 09 2007,04:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Dan,
Yeah, we really went OT on Joe's thread. It went from my slow bulk suggestion to discussion of Lyle's research. In regards to what people around her say a bulk is; I look at it like this way:
Bulk: 500 kcal above maintenance level
Slow Bulk: 250 kcal over (efficient at lower body fat % OR over a long time period such as 1+ years)
Slow Cut: 250 kcal under (rather inefficient 90% of the time)
Cut: 500 kcal under
The P-ratio seems to be fairly predetermined by your body's physiological state, but when I read Lyle's research about tricking the brain to think leptin levels are A-OK by increasing dopamine levels -- I immediately thought about fish oil, specifically DHA. I really think I have jumped on to Sears' bandwagon about it being the miracle "drug" of the 21st Century.
I am interested in reading more of the science actually, but not too fast as I couldn't dive into the hardcore chemistry. It's been three years since I have taken a chemistry or physiology course. Nevertheless, I was interested in biochemistry and everything that was truly going on in our bodies at the time.
Bluejacket,
As always -- great insight. I don't believe a sudden change in P-ratio (from 33% to 83% like in your example) is possible, but bumping it up a few percent here and there ever so slowly doesn't seem like a crazy thought. This is just my logic speaking, and you know where my thoughts are in regards to body manipulation via diet.</div>
Dopamine agonists mimic some of the effects of normal leptin levels, they don't send the signal that leptin is A-OK. So you kill of some naughty aspects of dieting, but don't entirely negate the effects of reduced leptin.
Think of things like this WRT the P-ratio:you putz with it a little on a bulk towards +LBM, you putz with it a little during a cut towards +LBM and you get a(roughly cumulative effort) of getting a tad more muscle than you would normally-the goal is to be a little bit bigger after each bulk/cut cycle, as long as your body allows it(we're talking about natural, mediocre trainees, not assisted/genetically excellent ones).
I think that on a bulk one should push the limits of slackness, go with his intake as far as possible within the constraints of monitoring his BF %age weekly and cutting back on the excedent if that gets out of hand. Perhaps my mindset is influenced by the fact that you only have so much between competitions(even if you do one show per year), and in order to prevent retardedness you have to reserve a decent amount of time for cutting, thus having a relatively limitied window of opportunity for meat-adding.
(colby2152 @ Nov. 09 2007,04:17)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Dan,
Yeah, we really went OT on Joe's thread. It went from my slow bulk suggestion to discussion of Lyle's research. In regards to what people around her say a bulk is; I look at it like this way:
Bulk: 500 kcal above maintenance level
Slow Bulk: 250 kcal over (efficient at lower body fat % OR over a long time period such as 1+ years)
Slow Cut: 250 kcal under (rather inefficient 90% of the time)
Cut: 500 kcal under
The P-ratio seems to be fairly predetermined by your body's physiological state, but when I read Lyle's research about tricking the brain to think leptin levels are A-OK by increasing dopamine levels -- I immediately thought about fish oil, specifically DHA. I really think I have jumped on to Sears' bandwagon about it being the miracle "drug" of the 21st Century.
I am interested in reading more of the science actually, but not too fast as I couldn't dive into the hardcore chemistry. It's been three years since I have taken a chemistry or physiology course. Nevertheless, I was interested in biochemistry and everything that was truly going on in our bodies at the time.
Bluejacket,
As always -- great insight. I don't believe a sudden change in P-ratio (from 33% to 83% like in your example) is possible, but bumping it up a few percent here and there ever so slowly doesn't seem like a crazy thought. This is just my logic speaking, and you know where my thoughts are in regards to body manipulation via diet.</div>
Dopamine agonists mimic some of the effects of normal leptin levels, they don't send the signal that leptin is A-OK. So you kill of some naughty aspects of dieting, but don't entirely negate the effects of reduced leptin.
Think of things like this WRT the P-ratio:you putz with it a little on a bulk towards +LBM, you putz with it a little during a cut towards +LBM and you get a(roughly cumulative effort) of getting a tad more muscle than you would normally-the goal is to be a little bit bigger after each bulk/cut cycle, as long as your body allows it(we're talking about natural, mediocre trainees, not assisted/genetically excellent ones).
I think that on a bulk one should push the limits of slackness, go with his intake as far as possible within the constraints of monitoring his BF %age weekly and cutting back on the excedent if that gets out of hand. Perhaps my mindset is influenced by the fact that you only have so much between competitions(even if you do one show per year), and in order to prevent retardedness you have to reserve a decent amount of time for cutting, thus having a relatively limitied window of opportunity for meat-adding.
In regards to the dopamine agonists mimicking the effects of normal leptin levels... I agree, I wasn't saying the "con" was perfect, but it seems like it goes that extra mile. In respect to my everlasting quest to optimize the diet for one's goals, I think this just gives more proof to the pudding that long chain Omega-3 fatty acids such as DHA and EPA found in fish oil help keep a body lean!
Since this is now officially the Highjack Joe thread, let's look at this a bit differently with a new question:
The protagonists of slow bulk have the goal of not getting fat while gaining muscle.
Okay.
But what about the value of shortbulk and cuts? If the P-ratio is better with a full bulk on, then wouldn't that be a better route? You'd still not be getting a spare tire. I think the question for this route would be does the P-ratio go so negative in the cut that it undoes all your majestic gains you made in the fulltilt bootscootin' bulk? I'm thinking of possibly even one long cycle with a bulk and cut in it or two regular cycles with one bulking/ one cutting, skipping the 15's.
The protagonists of slow bulk have the goal of not getting fat while gaining muscle.
Okay.
But what about the value of shortbulk and cuts? If the P-ratio is better with a full bulk on, then wouldn't that be a better route? You'd still not be getting a spare tire. I think the question for this route would be does the P-ratio go so negative in the cut that it undoes all your majestic gains you made in the fulltilt bootscootin' bulk? I'm thinking of possibly even one long cycle with a bulk and cut in it or two regular cycles with one bulking/ one cutting, skipping the 15's.
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Since this is now officially the Highjack Joe thread, let's look at this a bit differently with a new question:</div>
LOL!
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">But what about the value of shortbulk and cuts?</div>
Short as in what time frame... four weeks?
LOL!
<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">But what about the value of shortbulk and cuts?</div>
Short as in what time frame... four weeks?
Well, personally, since I'm a lousy cutter and tend to gain fat easier than when younger - my thinking is along the lines of the framework I stated. You'd either:
Do a bulk in a long HST cycle, perhaps using 15's, 12's, 8's, 6's and either MS or 3's - switching to a cut in the middle somewhere,
or,
Do a regular cycle bulking for 6 weeks and a second cycle without the 15's for 4 or 6 weeks while cutting.
...all of this as opposed to those 3-6 month bulks and cuts.
Do a bulk in a long HST cycle, perhaps using 15's, 12's, 8's, 6's and either MS or 3's - switching to a cut in the middle somewhere,
or,
Do a regular cycle bulking for 6 weeks and a second cycle without the 15's for 4 or 6 weeks while cutting.
...all of this as opposed to those 3-6 month bulks and cuts.
<div>
(quadancer @ Nov. 10 2007,08:52)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Well, personally, since I'm a lousy cutter and tend to gain fat easier than when younger - my thinking is along the lines of the framework I stated. You'd either:
Do a bulk in a long HST cycle, perhaps using 15's, 12's, 8's, 6's and either MS or 3's - switching to a cut in the middle somewhere,
or,
Do a regular cycle bulking for 6 weeks and a second cycle without the 15's for 4 or 6 weeks while cutting.
...all of this as opposed to those 3-6 month bulks and cuts.</div>
i think this is the best way to bulk ie; plan your diet to fit a cycle, get to the end and reevaluate, from what ive read, along with personal experience is that the body is better at growing in short bursts. the body adapts and counteracts any given stimulas to bring about a balence or homeostasis, which is seen in individuals who use aas (the gains dont last forever). so you will see deminishing returns when eating or doing the same things day in day out, so we need to correctly utilise carbs and protien as you build up to a cycle.
i tend to reduce my carbs just before and through SD then i ramp them up once again as i get into the cycle,my muscles then eagerly soak up the added carbs giving me a boost. as you become more "seasoned" you have to take special or inventive measures in order to keep growing.
this is just my xp.
(quadancer @ Nov. 10 2007,08:52)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Well, personally, since I'm a lousy cutter and tend to gain fat easier than when younger - my thinking is along the lines of the framework I stated. You'd either:
Do a bulk in a long HST cycle, perhaps using 15's, 12's, 8's, 6's and either MS or 3's - switching to a cut in the middle somewhere,
or,
Do a regular cycle bulking for 6 weeks and a second cycle without the 15's for 4 or 6 weeks while cutting.
...all of this as opposed to those 3-6 month bulks and cuts.</div>
i think this is the best way to bulk ie; plan your diet to fit a cycle, get to the end and reevaluate, from what ive read, along with personal experience is that the body is better at growing in short bursts. the body adapts and counteracts any given stimulas to bring about a balence or homeostasis, which is seen in individuals who use aas (the gains dont last forever). so you will see deminishing returns when eating or doing the same things day in day out, so we need to correctly utilise carbs and protien as you build up to a cycle.
i tend to reduce my carbs just before and through SD then i ramp them up once again as i get into the cycle,my muscles then eagerly soak up the added carbs giving me a boost. as you become more "seasoned" you have to take special or inventive measures in order to keep growing.
this is just my xp.