Isolation-when-to-start

Discussion in 'Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST)' started by sphillip40, Sep 16, 2005.

  1. sphillip40

    sphillip40 New Member

    I know this subject has been discussed already. I'm looking at bi's right now for this thread. From what I've read, people say to wait until your 10's, or your 5's, and some say even post 5's to start with a set or 2 of isolation. I understand this so far.

    What gets me though, after doing one cycle all the way through (with awesome results), is that my bi's are killing me in post 5's by just doing my compounds. I don't think i could do heavy isolation work at this point without possibly sacrficing my compound progress on the next workout (recovery time). But in 15s, 10s, and even most of the 5s, my bi's are hardly ever sore. The peeps here say it's not really needed during most of these cycles though. What am I missing? Shouldn't i want to incorporate say a set or 2 of hammer curls even before i get to the post 5's or normal 5's so that my bi's get some doms? They haven't grown at all until i actually hit the post 5's (heavy chin-ups, pull-ups, rows). Or am i going about this all wrong? What has been said and wait i'm observing contradict each other. It's cool to see the bi's grow though in just 2 weeks.

    Should i just toss the idea of isolation work all together for my bi's since my compounds are making them grow? Thanks for your help.
     
  2. chiefhog

    chiefhog New Member

    I'd stick with the compounds as long as your arms are growing.
     
  3. thehamma

    thehamma New Member

    I dont see the sense in waiting until the end of the cycle to start doing iso's. If anything the weights aren't going to be heavy enought to stimulate growth in your arms with just compounds in the beginning. If there is any time to omit the iso's I would do it at the end of the cycle when the weights are heavy enough in the compound exerices to get your arms growing.
    So to follow up on your observations I would do the iso work early in the cycle to make your arms grow, and then as the weights get heavier, in the post 5's drop them because you say your arms are growing with just the compounds.

    A quote from the big man:
    thehamma
     
  4. sphillip40

    sphillip40 New Member

    Thanks for shedding some light on this. It makes sense to me to add the iso's in for bi's early and then to drop them once I'm in my post 5's. Maybe once my arms don't grow anymore from the compounds in the post 5's, i'll add the iso's then too. This would mean that my arms need the extra stimuli.
     
  5. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    There's 2 reasons that people usually omit isolations until the 5s and post 5s..

    1. Compounds are heavy enough to stimulate growth in the 10s and 15s, you're just coming off an SD remember. Not to mention that your isolation weight will have nothing on the tension applied by the compound.

    2. Using isolations too early means you will encounter Repeated-Bout-Effect earlier - the lighter loads will be less effective, at least this is what Vicious states.
     
  6. Just my .02

    Isolation during 5's aren't needed the tension exerted during the heavy weights are enough to cause sufficient strain.

    IMOO, using isolation in the earlier weights where they are very light is a good way to increase recruitment and TUT.

    Vicious, uses them predominantly in an active stretch mode(Fly's, Incline Shoulder Laterals, Incline Curls) the deficit in strength and advanced EC uncoupling are immediatley followed by an SD, the deficit in performance wouldn't be such a detriment to future loading.
     
  7. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    The answer to this is probably in the PIMP-Book somewhere, but could I get a quick run down on E-C coupling, why/how the loaded stretching alters it..? Decrease in E-C coupling speed will mean a strength loss correct?
     
  8. E-C coupling failure results from depolarization induced voltage sensor change failing to be communicated to the SR Ca2+ release channel. Increases in the number of longitudinal segments of the t-tubule network, changes in the direction and position of triads, the appearance of caveolar clusters, and the appearance of pentads and heptads are all related to changes seen in E-C coupling failure following eccentric exercise causing force loss.

    E-C uncoupling is only one mechanism by which strength deficits are seen, contactile protein changes and structural changes are others. From what I've seen during the first three days after injury, most (@ 75%) of the strength loss is attributed to a failure of E-C coupling. The remainder of the strength loss, at least for the first day or two, is attributed to physical disruption and/or alteration of force-bearing elements within the muscle. By three days after the injury, the proportion of the strength deficit unaccounted for by E-C coupling failure is attributed to a decreased contractile protein content, which seems likely to result from the removal of disrupted myofibrillar structures. The E-C coupling failure is diminishing by 5 days after the injury and is resolved by 14 day after the injury. During that time period, the proportion of the strength loss attributed to the contractile protein loss increases from @40–45% to almost 100%.
     
  9. Totentanz

    Totentanz Super Moderator Staff Member

    This is interesting and pretty much opposite of what everyone was saying before... but interesting. It makes perfect sense, however, so I've decided I'm going to try it out on my next HST cycle, do isolations and compounds up until the 5s, then only compounds during 5s and negatives.
    That should also help combat the trend where workouts gradually get longer and longer as you move to the next rep range...
     
  10. thehamma

    thehamma New Member

    What does this mean?  In laymen terms, not mad scientist terms. Also, what is e-c coupling?
    thehamma
     
  11. Fausto

    Fausto HST Expert

    sphillip40

    To be fair to your question, I started including these at the post 10's and 5's to account for time (it would take too long in the 15's and 10's stages) and also because I wanted or needed more recruitment of fibres at the heavier stage.

    From what I can deduce from your initial post is that at the heavier stage your bi's are hurting because they are getting enough recruitment and therefore need no extra work [​IMG]

    If you are getting good results without the iso's at the late stages keep it going just like that, why change a good thing  :confused:

    I could agree with doing iso's early although I feel that it is too time consuming, but that is just me, there could be dozens of others feeling differently.

    I am glad you are getting results and without getting technical, you could use isolations early if it suits you, till the heavies and then drop these at an agreed point [​IMG]

    The whole issue here is getting good results, then you are adding value to all of us by quoting your results, even without figures, for that shows yet another "facet of the HST diamond", how versatile can we get?  [​IMG]

    I'd say it is a good thing, right :confused:

    Cheers
     
  12. It's pretty hard to spell it out without using "mad scientists" terms because the changes seen are to those structural items, which have scientific names.

    Simply put E-C uncoupling cause strength loss. Strength loss means you can't load as much on the bar and do the same amount of work.

    E-C coupling is, Excitation-Contraction coupling. The coupling of two systems, the excitation phase to the contraction phase.
     
  13. sphillip40

    sphillip40 New Member

    Thanks for all of the replies. I'm glad a few others have thought about my issue. I think it's neat that you can go by feel (and by metrics) to improve on one's plan. It makes HST so much fun versus "follow this to the T and you shall grow" methods out there.
    Thanks again.
     
  14. Singleton

    Singleton New Member

    I'm really not understanding it either.

    Can you explain it with a little background for the rest of us. I'm interested, i just don't have your background.
     
  15. Look at the General Training Forum, in there you will see a Thread called "Muscle Growth Flowchart". On page 1 look at the 10th post, I posted this as a means for people to understand the Excitation Phase, once you get that under your belt read and understand the 9th post in that thread, it explains the contraction phase.

    Once you understand those you can begin to see how uncoupling of these systems can cause force loss. If you still don't get it let me know and I'll spell it out to you in a PM.
     

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