Light versus heavy weight
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HST_Rihad
Active Member
Fatness is well-known for its effects on lowering test levels. Even if my test levels have been pathologically low even without all the fat being around, how would knowing that help me build more muscle? Or is it like a green light to jack up as much test as I want? 
I doubt that if I had unnaturally lower test levels (like say a woman does) I could ever leg press over 600 lbs (not saying it's much, but still a bit outside of what an average naturally training lady would do).
I doubt that if I had unnaturally lower test levels (like say a woman does) I could ever leg press over 600 lbs (not saying it's much, but still a bit outside of what an average naturally training lady would do).
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Your lack of facial hair and body hair and your inclination to gain fat instead of muscle may be indication of possible low Test. Knowing if that were the case would help you design a natural program to encourage higher Test levels or to seek corrective hormone therapy. If the levels are, in fact, low and you do nothing about it, you are probably stuck with the lack of results you have been getting. You may also have unusually high cortisol and estrogen levels that may need correcting to even get "normal" results from training. Just a thought. Trying to cover all the bases for you. Do with it as you see fit.
O&G
O&G
HST_Rihad
Active Member
Best way to keep my testosterone at a normal level would be to get rid of all the extra fat in the first place.
My growth results from training have been acceptable in my opinion, I just got overly fat because I ate too much most of the time. As soon as I started limiting the amount of food eaten I started losing weight. Maybe I didn't do enough volume to elicit greater response, but here's my chest size progression (in cm):
105cm/41.3" (oct'11) -- 106cm/41.7" (dec'11) -- 107cm/42.1" (jan'12) -- 107.5cm/42.3" (mar'12) -- 108cm/42.5" (may'12) -- 109cm/42.9" (dec'12) -- 109.1cm/42.95" (jan'13) -- 109.5cm/43.1" (mar'13)
apparently 1-2 working sets was enough to keep the ball rolling most of the time.
Unfortunately I only started tracking my tape measurements in 2011, but I do know that my chest was as small as 89cm (35") back when I started working out in May, 2002 when I was 21.5 y.o. (including the 6 year 2003-2009 time off) and was 96cm (37.8") in Mar, 2003
My growth results from training have been acceptable in my opinion, I just got overly fat because I ate too much most of the time. As soon as I started limiting the amount of food eaten I started losing weight. Maybe I didn't do enough volume to elicit greater response, but here's my chest size progression (in cm):
105cm/41.3" (oct'11) -- 106cm/41.7" (dec'11) -- 107cm/42.1" (jan'12) -- 107.5cm/42.3" (mar'12) -- 108cm/42.5" (may'12) -- 109cm/42.9" (dec'12) -- 109.1cm/42.95" (jan'13) -- 109.5cm/43.1" (mar'13)
apparently 1-2 working sets was enough to keep the ball rolling most of the time.
Unfortunately I only started tracking my tape measurements in 2011, but I do know that my chest was as small as 89cm (35") back when I started working out in May, 2002 when I was 21.5 y.o. (including the 6 year 2003-2009 time off) and was 96cm (37.8") in Mar, 2003
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Fat doesn't effect test levels as much as you think. Fat can cause more aromatization which will lead to higher levels of estrogen. But if you have low test to the point that you need to be on testosterone replacement therapy, losing fat will not fix the problem.
Totz, there was a study done quite a while ago, which you may have come across, the results of which indicated that men with low T who were put on T replacement therapy reduced their bodyfat % and increased their strength levels without doing any exercise. I do not recall the numbers and they did not transform couch potatoes into bodybuilders but they were somewhat surprising. My guess is that the partitioning ratio got chemically changed.
Rihad, if you are happy with your results, so are we. But your posts sure do not indicate that!
Rihad, if you are happy with your results, so are we. But your posts sure do not indicate that!
HST_Rihad
Active Member
O&G, I think you may be confusing prescribed T replacement therapy with voluntary augmentation, as competitive bodybuilders do it.
The study Totentanz referred to is most likely the one by Bhrasin et al ("The Effects of Supraphysiologic Doses of Testosterone on Muscle Size and Strength in Normal Men") and the results are here. In short, the group taking testosterone and not exercising gained more lean mass than group with no steroids and who were exercising.
The study Totentanz referred to is most likely the one by Bhrasin et al ("The Effects of Supraphysiologic Doses of Testosterone on Muscle Size and Strength in Normal Men") and the results are here. In short, the group taking testosterone and not exercising gained more lean mass than group with no steroids and who were exercising.
Rihad, that's one of the studies. Thanks for the link.
I am confused about lots of things in life but I am not confused about what I am saying here (although I could be wrong) and am clearly talking only about T supplementation (through prescription or otherwise) to high "normal" ranges, not abusing steroids to get abnormally high T values. I also do not talk about injecting oil into arms to get Popeye-the-Sailor biceps, adding calf implants or any other unnatural and unhealthy stuff that people who are probably mentally deranged seem to do.
If nothing else, that study, coupled with what I would call less than stellar results that you shared, should get you curious as to what your testosterone levels are. If not, I'm fine with that too.
O&G
I am confused about lots of things in life but I am not confused about what I am saying here (although I could be wrong) and am clearly talking only about T supplementation (through prescription or otherwise) to high "normal" ranges, not abusing steroids to get abnormally high T values. I also do not talk about injecting oil into arms to get Popeye-the-Sailor biceps, adding calf implants or any other unnatural and unhealthy stuff that people who are probably mentally deranged seem to do.
If nothing else, that study, coupled with what I would call less than stellar results that you shared, should get you curious as to what your testosterone levels are. If not, I'm fine with that too.
O&G
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I found this a very interesting post... Thanks O&G for posting and sharing your experiences.
I have trained heavy most my training life (Max OT mostly). I for one will be going lighter on weight and higher on reps to keep things going. I like your style O&G. I have already ditched 5's on shoulders. Soon, I will stop 5's on all body parts in favor for higher reps. I will keep cycling rep ranges, but just not get down to heavy with 5's anymore. Lifting heavy DOES take it's toll on you, without a doubt.
I have trained heavy most my training life (Max OT mostly). I for one will be going lighter on weight and higher on reps to keep things going. I like your style O&G. I have already ditched 5's on shoulders. Soon, I will stop 5's on all body parts in favor for higher reps. I will keep cycling rep ranges, but just not get down to heavy with 5's anymore. Lifting heavy DOES take it's toll on you, without a doubt.
HST_Rihad
Active Member
It may be that it's not heavy 5's people eventually have problems with, but exercise choice. Behind the head overhead press is known for its effects on developing shoulder problems over time, as are behind the head pull-ups. Or even if a person never does them, he can still develop chronic pain in shoulders by always doing pushing exercises for his upper body (bench, overhead, etc) and never giving his rear deltoids a chance to keep up, so strength imbalance develops over time, which leads to chronic pain. This is why Bryan has listed only a safe selection of exercises which includes direct rear-delt work.
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While this may be part of the problem, I feel that constant heavy loads over time will have detrimental effects. For example, I have stuck with compounds, lifted carefully, stayed away from unnatural movements (such as behind the neck presses) and I still have my shoulders giving me warning signs. I take a lot of stock in what O&G says, not just because he has many years experience with lifting, but based on my own experience as well. I have lifted some absolutely crazy loads with various exercises. I just do not think this is kind to the joints at all. I have read up a a fair bit on Arnold, Frank Zane and some other old school guys. Most of them have wrecked shoulders. Arnold admitted in a recent interview that he can no longer bench press due to shoulder issues. I know these guys had some chemical assistance over the years, but most of them lifted pretty heavy for a number of years.
I feel that we need to be careful that we don't bust up our bodies on the journey of getting a good physique. For a while there, I thought I was in a lot of strife with my shoulder, but thankfully it was just giving me a warning sign and I have taken note. I tell you what though, it is a pretty depressing thought knowing that your training may be side-lined due to joint or tendon issues.
I think we need to listen to some of the older guys (older guys is said with all due respect, because we are all on our way to becoming older guys).
I feel that we need to be careful that we don't bust up our bodies on the journey of getting a good physique. For a while there, I thought I was in a lot of strife with my shoulder, but thankfully it was just giving me a warning sign and I have taken note. I tell you what though, it is a pretty depressing thought knowing that your training may be side-lined due to joint or tendon issues.
I think we need to listen to some of the older guys (older guys is said with all due respect, because we are all on our way to becoming older guys).
Renky, just to be clear, I am not against heavy loads. In fact, I think you need to do them to obtain a balanced and functionally strong body. However, doing just 2 or 3 weeks of heavies during regular HST cycles, coupled with strict form and adequate SD, should allow you an infinite number of pain free lifting years, depending on genetics. However, doing only heavies all the time will eventually catch up to most people. Then, if not before, it is time to go lighter and heal.
I have a friend who was in the Olympics weight lifting competition representing Denmark 50 plus years ago. The guy has had every known corrective shoulder, knee and complete (cervical, thoracic and lumbar) spine surgery that I can think of and still has to take drugs just to shuffle around. Did the years of heavy lifting do this to him? I can't say for sure but it probably was a big contributing factor. Also, back then, getting the weight up was more important than form. The lifts also include a very dangerous OH snatch move that, with its OH wide grip, invites injury, especially on singles.
I have had both knees, miniscus tears, operated on and two back surgeries; a bulging disk 15 years ago and a lower back fusion with 2 rods, 4 collars and 8 screws inserted last September due to stenosis. I asked the Doctor if weight lifting contributed to it. He said perhaps, but most of it was poor bone genetics and had I not lifted my whole life, I probably would have been crippled and in a wheel chair years ago. I took 1 1/2 months off from lifting and came back and within 3 months was bigger and stronger than previously. The power of an overdue extended deconditioning period!
Now I only go down to 6's on compounds and may increase that to 7 reps when I turn 70. I expect to lose a little muscle but I will still be able to ride my horses like a posse was after me!
O&G
I have a friend who was in the Olympics weight lifting competition representing Denmark 50 plus years ago. The guy has had every known corrective shoulder, knee and complete (cervical, thoracic and lumbar) spine surgery that I can think of and still has to take drugs just to shuffle around. Did the years of heavy lifting do this to him? I can't say for sure but it probably was a big contributing factor. Also, back then, getting the weight up was more important than form. The lifts also include a very dangerous OH snatch move that, with its OH wide grip, invites injury, especially on singles.
I have had both knees, miniscus tears, operated on and two back surgeries; a bulging disk 15 years ago and a lower back fusion with 2 rods, 4 collars and 8 screws inserted last September due to stenosis. I asked the Doctor if weight lifting contributed to it. He said perhaps, but most of it was poor bone genetics and had I not lifted my whole life, I probably would have been crippled and in a wheel chair years ago. I took 1 1/2 months off from lifting and came back and within 3 months was bigger and stronger than previously. The power of an overdue extended deconditioning period!
Now I only go down to 6's on compounds and may increase that to 7 reps when I turn 70. I expect to lose a little muscle but I will still be able to ride my horses like a posse was after me!
O&G
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O&G - Agreed. I was coming from the angle of using Max OT for a number of years. I think I was very fortunate to not visit "Snap City" doing that program. It gave me a lot of strength and built foundation for size, but the heavy loads constantly used does not feel good after a while. I feel my left shoulder is now a bit of a week link as a result of constant heavy weights. As per my other thread, I have to give up the 5's for shoulders and will need to work on a 8-10 rep range for them. I will see how this goes in the long term.
I thought my growing days were in a constant plateau, but have rebounded well. HST is done in cycles, so that is a more balanced program. My experience and results on HST is high. Great program and if you are dedicated, you will grow for sure. I also spoke with a Physical Therapist about my shoulder and mentioned HST to her. She said it was a very good program with the cycles and the SD at the end. Very good for muscles, tendons and recovery.
I thought my growing days were in a constant plateau, but have rebounded well. HST is done in cycles, so that is a more balanced program. My experience and results on HST is high. Great program and if you are dedicated, you will grow for sure. I also spoke with a Physical Therapist about my shoulder and mentioned HST to her. She said it was a very good program with the cycles and the SD at the end. Very good for muscles, tendons and recovery.