Looking for a little help

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WeAre138

New Member
I've been lurking on HST for a while now. I started with vanilla HST a year ago, and since then have been through 4 bulking HST cycles and a couple extended HST cutting cycles. I lifted in high school for 3 years, then took a couple years off in college and did a bunch of cardio (and lost 30lbs), then I started lifting casually again about 4 years ago and eventually worked myself up to an insane amount of volume (up to 6 exercises per large muscle group with 3 sets of 8-10 reps each once a week; in other words, pretty typical ignorant lifting behavior). Then I found HST, and my lifting education commenced. Since then, I've read every article on this site (including FAQs), every newsletter from the old ThinkMuscle page, nearly every article on Lyle McDonald's website, and a little from Alan Aragon. But, I keep having the same difficulty. I don't think that I'm growing much on my bulking cycle. That isn't to say the scale isn't going up, I'm certainly putting a little fat on, but I don't see much progress as far as LBM. I've posted a few times on the forum on different topics trying to figure out what the problem might be, but I decided to just start a new, direct topic and see if anyone can help me out. My current program is:

Leg Press, Leg Curl, Calf Raises, Dumbbell Bench, Lat Pulldown, Shrugs, Preacher Curls, Skull Crushers, Rows. 1x15, 1.5X10, 3X5 for all exercises; 3 days a week.

I eat 23XBW 24 hours after lifting and slightly above maintenance all other times. I take creatine and fish oil.

These are pictures taken after a couple weeks of SD after my most recent cut and pictures from my current bulk.
End of cut: http://s895.photobucket.com/albums/a...OfCut11152009/
Mid Bulk: http://s895.photobucket.com/albums/a...idBulk1292010/

I don't know if what little progress I'm seeing is what I'm supposed to see and my expectations are out of line, or if I'm not lifting enough or what the problem is. I don't expect any definite answers, just hoping for some opinions from some folks who've been doing this a lot longer than me. I really appreciate it; and I appreciate the wealth of information on this site.
 
Any reason for not having Squats and Deadlifts on your routine? Those are the two best exercises for overall muscle building.
From what I understood you have been consistently lifting for over 4 years. Unfortunately gains shouldn't come too fast any more. You should stick to it for a while before assessing the results. You might need a little more volume (the 1x15, 1.5x10, 3x5 is a suggestion by Bryan) or maybe you aren't really pushing yourself on the weights. Other possibility is that 23xBW might be a little too much and the tag along fat you are gaining is clouding/hiding the lbm gains.
 
I'm with 'Lectric on this one. If you want to add bulk, you're gonna need squats and deadlifts in your routine. Maybe cut out the frills, such as leg presses, leg curls, calf raises, and shrugs, and swap in squats and deads in their place.

Dumbbell Bench Presses are an assistance exercise. Do barbell bench presses instead.

Skulls and curls are nice once you've got some sort of mass built up, but until then, do chins and dips instead.

Your rows are okay.

So maybe try something like:
Chin
Dip
Bench
Row
Squats
Deads

Do this for two or three months, then see how well you are coming along.
 
TR gives some good adviced. Stick to the basics:

Squats
BB Incline BP
Shoulder Press
Pull Ups

All the rest is frosting for when you are more fully developed.
 
I really appreciate the feedback; it never fails to impress me how helpful and friendly this forum is.

Electric: Until recently, my squat form wasn't very good.  My low back would usually fatigue long before I felt it in my legs.  I figured it was just something you had to push through and build up, but after trying for a long time to get accustomed to it (and dealing with knee, low back and neck tweaks and minor injuries) I gave up and just switched to leg press; where the load has always been strongly on my legs and glutes.  Recently though, my friend who's a trainer looked at my squat form and helped me out a ton, so now I begin ever workout with some light squats (12-15 reps or so) to warm up and work on form.  So, I hope to eventually swap out leg press for squats; provided that when I get to the point of adding more weight on the bar, I can feel it in my lower body.   Deadlifts, I never really saw the point.  They (like squats) seem to be a pretty technical movement that I've never been able to do right (way too much low back emphasis, scraping the skin right off my shins).  And they tend to hit the same muscle groups squats do, with a slightly different emphasis.   Yeah they work the low back more, but me, like most people, have a excessive lordosis of the lower spine anyway, I'm not sure adding an exercise that has more low back emphasis is a good way to handle that.  That being said, I have been thinking about taking out leg curls and adding in deadlifts or RDLs, but I'm going to have to do a lot of reading to get my form down so that I don't hurt myself.  I think I push myself hard enough in the gym.  I've learned through my HST enlightening that "pushing yourself" doesn't just mean lifting really heavy weights; it means having the energy and unwavering focus necessary to perform each rep with perfect form, even in the face of really heavy weights.  I think I do alright there.  As far as the volume, you may be right; 15 reps per exercise may not be enough.  The definition of a beginner is complicated, some define your level by how long you've been lifting, others by how long you've been lifting CORRECTLY.  I've only been lifting correctly about a year.

TunnelRat & Old and Grey: I should have mentioned this at the beginning, but I injured my shoulder playing high school ball (subluxing humerous, likely due to a posterior labrum tear) that hasn't been surgically corrected.  My physical therapist gave me a bunch of shoulder exercises that I do every other day.  He also told me not to lift weights, but...  Anyway, because of this I'm very leery of doing any shoulder press and would rather not do incline bench press (I haven't done it, but the angle doesn't seem like a favorable one, I'd rather do decline if I had to add something else in).  My understanding is the delts get hit hard enough with regular bench and rows, tris with bench.  Also, because of this I stick to dumbbell bench press because it irritates my shoulder less.  For the same reason, I stay away from dips.  I've really only done bodyweight dips, but I know they are famous for putting a lot of strain on the shoulder.  So, assistance exercise or not, I'm pretty much stuck with db bench.  Since my goals are 100% hypertrophy and only enough strength gains to maintain growth, I'm not too worried about the definitions of power lifting lifts and power lifting assistance lifts.  My gym doesn't have belts with chains to add weights on, and since hypertrophy requires progressive overload, lat pull down seems like a pretty good substitute for chinups/pullups. I swear, I'm not trying to be contentious or argumentative, I mean, I partly understand the benefit of the big three.  Namely it allows you to spend less time and calories working out, while still hitting all the muscles.  But they're all very technical and I honestly have never seen a single person do them correctly under any kind of load (including myself on anything other than bench; I think my bench form is about 90% correct).  So other than the time saving/calorie saving issue, why else do them?  If I was a cellar-dweller and all I had was a bar and a bench then I would only do the big 3.  But I've got a gym to go to with all kinds of options.  The supposed GH response to squats/deads?  I'm still new to scientific weight training, but that seems incredibly small and arguably completely insignificant.  If I took out the fluffy exercises for the big 3, would I be adding more reps per exercise?  I'm asking, is the push for big compounds because then you can do more reps per muscle group per workout?  Because if so, that's a different argument.  Anyway, I assume HST and Lyle's generic bulk are aimed at people like me.  Those who have been lifting for some years but who are really looking to add mass for no other reason than to be bigger.  Bryan and Lyle both spent a lot of time devising their programs specifically for bulking, and they both include isolation and compound exercises.  The movements I'm doing now are almost straight from vanilla HST except for movements I had to cut out because of past injuries.  I'm just saying that if big compounds are so important to get bigger, why didn't Bryan mention that when he listed the principles for muscle hypertrophy.  I'm not trying to be dismissive or to make excuses for my lack of progress, I'm honestly trying to understand muscle growth.

With all due respect; sincerely, you all have spent way more time with this program and weight lifting in general than I have, and I can't over emphasize my respect for that.  But I'm just not sure my movement choice is the problem.

Phew, I'll be impressed if anyone reads that.
 
i have shoulder problems and found that flat bench agrivated it more now i only do incline,now i know that sounds silly as it brings the shoulders in more,but i think thats the reason its better,when your doing an exercise like flat bench which focuses more on the pecs you tend to relax the delts and IMO thats when they get injured if they are tensed (as in incline bench)then they are ready,a bit like a footballer going in for a tackle if he is tensed up ready he is less likely to get injured thats IMO anyway.

as far as your other exercise choices are concerned,any exercise that you add weight over a period of time should increase muscle mass as long as your diet and recovery are good,the big compound exercises do use more muscles and slightly give more hormone release (how much not sure
rock.gif
).
i think you need to increase your sets, i prefer 2x15,3x10,3x5,4x5,5x5.
 
You are free to choose the lifts you like doing and HST has absolutely no restriction with that. Since you are more likely to lift consistently if you use exercises that you like that is a good thing. I would recommend anyway that you put in an effort to learn and incorporate squatting and deadlifting into your routine. You don't even need to completely replace what you are doing now. They are exercises that build not only the "targetted" muscles, but stabilizing muscles and core strength. Neither of them, done correctly, target the lower back directly. It is involved by contracting isometrically to give support. Squat, specially if done deep (ATG) hits quads, hams, glutes besides the core and deadlifts quads, glutes and upper back, besides core and grip strength. Other benefit of free-weight exercises is they use natural movements and that translate very well to sports and other everyday use of your body.

Anyway, I think we are diverging from your original "complaint/question" that was regarding you being unsure you are getting the correct amount of growth. That is a tricky question since there are so many variables in play, volume, frequency, load, nutrition, genetics... The first thing you need to have in mind is that growing lean mass is slow. Ignore muscle magazines pictures and claims. Most of it (if not all) is based on drugs and excellent genetics. Expect slow and steady results and in the long run you'll be big, strong and healthy. The next thing is to check your nutrition. Check your partitioning. Are you getting enough protein, essential fats, carbs after workout (to replenish muscle glycogen)? You are getting too much fat along with the muscle? Try reducing calories a bit. How are you tracking your calories? If it is an approximation maybe you need to weight your food and use tools like Fitday to make sure you are not getting too much or too little due.
Next up, your training: how do you feel throughout the week? Do you feel tired, not motivated to lift, your strength seems stagnated or reducing? You might be overtraining and that leads to not gaining muscle or even losing. You are never tired, never sore, feel like you were in a spa? Maybe you are taking too easy. Growing muscle is about exposing your body to unusual stimuli. That is why progressively increasing load is important. Once the body is accustomed to lifting the same weight it will no longer provide that nouvelle stimulus your body needs. You can apply that to volume too. Maybe your body requires more sets to give you an anabolic push. About genetics. Well, sorry. That can't be changed. Yet.
It is all about listening to your body and tweaking your variables, taking notes, seeing which tweaks give you better results and which don't and evolving your routine to fit the adjustments that best work for you and your body. Besides that, remember to have fun, that helps.  
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All of the above are excellent points.  However, I think the reason Bryan didn't make a requirement out of using certain exercises is because exercise choice is not actually what causes hypertrophy.  Putting mechanical tension on a muscle is what causes growth.  And, if over time you keep progressing the tension, the muscle will continue to grow.  A primary reason why squats and deads are so often recommended is because they do work, and they work well.  It is also a matter of training efficiency--squats and deads provide the most training "effect" per given amount of time in the gym.  Squats and deads also train the cardiovascular system quite well--which I'm sure you already know--and also lead to those hormonal changes mentioned above.  Another reason squats and deads are so often recommended is to combat a lot of the stupidity (such as machine-only training) that has gone on in the gym over the years.  But I don't think doing or not doing squats and/or deads is going to make or break your training.  I am one of those guys that kept getting injured doing squats and deads, and the net result of all of that misery:  I had to stop training, over and over.  If you keep getting injured by forcing yourself to do squats and deads, you'll never get anywhere.  So if leg presses are working for you, then by all means keep doing them.

Another area of concern is training volume.  I don't think pouring on more and more volume is going to suddenly make you grow like a weed.  I realize that conventional wisdom says do more volume to increase the training stimulus.  But this only applies if you're not currently getting enough volume.  Seriously, though; you really think adding 3 more sets of 5s to everything will make all the difference?  Sounds to me like a recipe for burn-out.  As Electric pointed out, you have to assess how you feel throughout the week, while not training, as well as how motivated you are on the way to the gym.  If you're always feeling like you didn't do anything in the gym, then you should add, perhaps, 1 more set to the compound lifts.  Also take a look at your sleep schedule.  Are you getting enough sleep?  What about stress; are you getting too much?  These are important factors, too.

Another important factor is patience.  Even if everything mentioned in this post and above is dialed, you're still going to have to be patient.  With all else being equal, everyone grows at different rates.  And with that said, I think you need to ask yourself whether you enjoy the act of training, even if you know you're not going to grow as fast as you want.  If you do enjoy training for the sake of training, then everything else will follow along at its own pace.
 
Hey everyone, thanks again for the responses. It looks like things have really slowed down on HST, so I'll probably make this a ('nother) long one.

Faz: Really? You've found incline doesn't bother your shoulders nearly as much as bench? I haven't honestly done incline since high school, I'll have to give it a try. Yeah, it's my understanding the hormonal response to big compounds is minor bordering on insignificant. But I'm NO expert, my process of un-learning has only begun. But to paraphrase luminaries, the GH response is small and doesn't really matter because injected GH hasn't been shown to do anything; and any testosterone response is also small, and people who juice use about 2x physiological levels, which is more than 20 reps of squats is going to accomplish. Ok, so you decrease set length and increase number of sets until you get to a 5X5 kinda routine in the last weeks. That makes sense. Thanks.

Electric: I actually agree with you completely. I really don't like leg press or leg curl and would rather sqat and DL. In fact, I'm working through Rippetoe's book to fix my form so that I'll be able to load those up sufficiently. I guess that's what the heart of my question was really about, if the growth I'm seeing is the normal rate for someone at my intermediate level, or if something should be changed. My protein is good, 1.5xbody weight at 5 meals throughout the day, with something like 45grams of protein around workout. A couple weeks before I originally posted this question, I started taking fish oils. Originally I had just focused on getting enough protein and getting enough calories, and outside of pre/post workout, not really caring about fats vs carbs. But since I started this thread I've begun focusing on getting enough carbs throughout the day. And I weigh/measure foods compulsively. As far as training goes, I feel alright (keeping in mind that only a little over a year ago I was a cult member of the "blast the pecs/back once a day" routine), I do notice that when the weights get heavy (5's), every time I increase the weight (every 2nd or 3rd workout) I tend to miss reps/set. But then the second time I try that weight, it tends to fall into 5 sets per rep. Thanks again electric. I sincerely appreciate it.

Navigator: All good points. I'm hesitant to start increasing weight on squats and deads until I know my form is rock solid for that exact reason. My sleep is good (I'm lucky enough to get 8-9 hours virtually every night) and stress is low until someone takes my bench at the gym when I go get a drink of water.

And I guess you all hit the nail on the head, patience is the key. HST has the research behind it, I don't plan on changing anytime soon. Again, this is a great forum and I'm really grateful for the advice.
 
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(WeAre138 @ Feb. 09 2010,4:18)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">...it never fails to impress me how helpful and friendly this forum is.</div>
I second that. You guys are awesome.
 
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(WeAre138 @ Feb. 25 2010,11:51)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Faz: Really?  You've found incline doesn't bother your shoulders nearly as much as bench?</div>
it doesnt bother it at all,maybe its as i said above,the shoulders are more engaged so they are ready for the weight.
 
I guess I really just had one question when I started this thread (even though I didn't know it at the time). Keeping in mind my training status (1 year of HST experience, proceeded by 1 year of failure-centric, high volume, ignorant 80's bodybuilder split with no regard to caloric surplus or proper form) do you all (who are much more experienced in HST and muscle gain than I am) think I got reasonable results out of my bulking cycle? It was 16 weeks of two full, basically vanilla HST cycles (with 9 days SD in between) where I ate a surplus of 18-22Xlb and ate 1.5gXlb protein every day with 5g creatine. The only tweak I used was keeping total reps constant (at 15) across the rep ranges. I see the evidence and research behind HST; I'm not about to leave the fold, I'm just wondering if it's time to tweak something else, or if my gains are normal and I did everything "right" (more or less).
 
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