Muscle fiber recruitment

The recent thread about Chad Waterbury's confused description of motor-unit recruitment and training got me thinking and I dug up this old post of mine from the Max-stim forum.

I hope this helps some newbies understand muscle fiber recruitment and why fatigue is not the stimulus for hypertrophy.  This will also explain why I like max-stim and fatigue management so much, and why I think it is the best version of HST so far....

"Each individual motor neuron controls a bundle of muscle fibers called a motor unit. The more motor units (MUs) we recruit the more tension we produce which is translated into force. When we lift max-stim style, the loads are relatively high (60%-95% of our 1rm). We also lift with full force, meaning fast reps. In a full force contraction, ALL MUs are being fired simultaneously in a state of complete tetanus. (tetanus means the MUs are firing in a rapid series, so rapid that the multiple twitches appear to be one continuous, smooth contraction.) This is full-fiber recruitment, all MUs are participating in the contraction, producing 100% of their force capability. This of course puts enormous strain on the muscle and depletes their energy reserves rapidly. These full-force contractions produce the greatest stimulus for hypertrophy. However, such contractions cannot be long sustained due to fatigue. When lifting lighter loads that do not require full-force, the MNs (motor neurons) fire on a rotating basis. (X) amount of MUs are needed to produce (Y) amount of force. Since (X) is less than the sum total of all MUs, then some MUs are resting while others are firing. They alternate 'shifts' so that each MU has a chance to rest while others are firing. In this case since only partial recruitment is occuring, it takes longer for the muscle to fatigue and thus fatigue must be first induced in the muscle before full recruitment can occur.

So when lifting your 15 rm and going to failure, full-recruitment doesn't occur until the last few reps. The last few reps seem harder because some of the MUs have already fatigued (depleted energy reserves), so full recruitment is necessary to keep lifting. When failure occurs, enough MUs are fatigued to the point that force production is too small too overcome the resistance.
HIT training gets some full-recruitment, which is good, but at the expense of heavy fatigue, which is bad for muscle contraction and recovery.

Max-Stimulation training gets full-recruitment (or very close) on each and every rep for multiple reps. The m-time between each rep allows the muscle to restore some lost energy reserves, putting off fatigue and allowing more total reps. More heavy reps = more full-force contractions, and hence maximal stimulation of the hypertrophy response."
 
sci i would like to give max-stim a go but in a busy gym its not really practical,maybe i could try it on a laging part one exercise shouldnt be to bad.
how long does your session take.
 
I'm doing MS right now and I'm convinced of its efficiency but I have to state that doing singles is a very monotonous and boring kind of training (pretty much like low clusters) to me, especially when it comes to the real heavy weights that require a longer m-time. Kinda psychological Burnout has already arised, so that my motivation to go to the gym is very low atm (althoug I don't give up; never gave
cool.gif
).
 
4 compounds take about 40-50 minutes doing 30 reps/exercise.

If you do 8 exercises for 20 reps/each. You should commit to at least an hour, and more as the weights progress.
 
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(scientific muscle @ Apr. 21 2007,09:52)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">4 compounds take about 40-50 minutes doing 30 reps/exercise.

If you do 8 exercises for 20 reps/each. You should commit to at least an hour, and more as the weights progress.</div>
What?
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My plan consists of 4 compunds and right now (weights are at my RM4 or RM3) it takes up 80 minutes to do 20 reps each exercise (alternating two ex. in circle fashion).
How can u be so fast, Sci?
 
Ya kiddin!
tounge.gif
So let me reassure that we're talkin about the heavy stuff (Rm5+). When I've already done 15 reps of Bench or Deadlift I need at least 30 secs to get another one.
 
Nooo..you are right. I am in the beginning of a cycle. Once it gets heavy is a different story, then a workout can stretch into an hour and a half. I don't mess around in the gym though, I move quickly from one exercise to the next.

If 4 exercises takes you 80 minutes, you might be resting TOO much or talking too much or taking too long to go from one exercise to the next.
 
I'm not that eloquent when I'm a the gym. In fact I talk so rarely during the workout that some guys miscontrue that as impoliteness.
biggrin.gif
So that can't be the reason. I'm not messing around betwenn exercises, either. As I said, I do two ex. alternating. I've already been thinkin about doing them one by one cuz it might be even less stressing to deadlift solely than to do to the bench after each deadlift. I don't know, maybe you are just a natural freak when it comes to recuperation?!
 
At the max-stim forum, there are guys doing 8+ exercises for 20 reps that take less than 90 minutes....but in your defense 3-4rm loads is EXTREMELY HEAVY, you must be near the end of your cycle.
 
The loads are headbusting and I already fell a bit wasted. Sci, do u think it's a good idea to cut volume down to 10-12 reps instead of doing a weight deload? I should mention that I'm in the middle of a cutting phase and my prior goal is to keep strength levels where they are (at least!).
 
<div>
(scientific muscle @ Apr. 20 2007,22:46)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">The recent thread about Chad Waterbury's confused description of motor-unit recruitment and training got me thinking and I dug up this old post of mine from the Max-stim forum.

I hope this helps some newbies understand muscle fiber recruitment and why fatigue is not the stimulus for hypertrophy.  This will also explain why I like max-stim and fatigue management so much, and why I think it is the best version of HST so far....

&quot;Each individual motor neuron controls a bundle of muscle fibers called a motor unit. The more motor units (MUs) we recruit the more tension we produce which is translated into force. When we lift max-stim style, the loads are relatively high (60%-95% of our 1rm). We also lift with full force, meaning fast reps. In a full force contraction, ALL MUs are being fired simultaneously in a state of complete tetanus. (tetanus means the MUs are firing in a rapid series, so rapid that the multiple twitches appear to be one continuous, smooth contraction.) This is full-fiber recruitment, all MUs are participating in the contraction, producing 100% of their force capability. This of course puts enormous strain on the muscle and depletes their energy reserves rapidly. These full-force contractions produce the greatest stimulus for hypertrophy. However, such contractions cannot be long sustained due to fatigue. When lifting lighter loads that do not require full-force, the MNs (motor neurons) fire on a rotating basis. (X) amount of MUs are needed to produce (Y) amount of force. Since (X) is less than the sum total of all MUs, then some MUs are resting while others are firing. They alternate 'shifts' so that each MU has a chance to rest while others are firing. In this case since only partial recruitment is occuring, it takes longer for the muscle to fatigue and thus fatigue must be first induced in the muscle before full recruitment can occur.

So when lifting your 15 rm and going to failure, full-recruitment doesn't occur until the last few reps. The last few reps seem harder because some of the MUs have already fatigued (depleted energy reserves), so full recruitment is necessary to keep lifting. When failure occurs, enough MUs are fatigued to the point that force production is too small too overcome the resistance.
HIT training gets some full-recruitment, which is good, but at the expense of heavy fatigue, which is bad for muscle contraction and recovery.

Max-Stimulation training gets full-recruitment (or very close) on each and every rep for multiple reps. The m-time between each rep allows the muscle to restore some lost energy reserves, putting off fatigue and allowing more total reps. More heavy reps = more full-force contractions, and hence maximal stimulation of the hypertrophy response.&quot;</div>
this is why i train close to my max's all week,to make sure full fibre recruitment is achieved.progressive load and different rep ranges have for me been the most logical and useful part of hst.

training with submaximal loads has always been hard to swallow especially if you want full fibre recruitment.so i train almost to failure but not total,each set and exercise i do.
 
Icars, you mean to say that you're not really doing HST? Or are you referring to the latter part of your cycle? I've found that with near-failure training (no further than primary failure), the weight increases are much smaller by necessity than with submax.
 
<div>
(quadancer @ Apr. 22 2007,04:58)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Icars, you mean to say that you're not really doing HST? Or are you referring to the latter part of your cycle? I've found that with near-failure training (no further than primary failure), the weight increases are much smaller by necessity than with submax.</div>
at the moment im using a hybrid program,but when i was using basic hst form i started getting close to my max's all the time so the increments were small.

but as time went by i decided that using progressive load weekly rather than each training session suited me.

i just couldnt lift at 60% and feel like id worked out,guess its just my conditioning. ive always lifted around 85% to 100% all the time.
 
Lcars, you can grow on submaximal loads...decondition, then when doing lighter loads, if you lift the weights as fast as possible, you will recruit more MUs and produce more force.  You can get full recruitment at 65% I am sure of this, and incidently that is where I started the loads in my recent cycle.  Lift those weights fast and hard.  I actually sometimes yell when doing light pendlay rows as it psyches me up to 'throw' the weight into my abs and then a controlled drop.

I agree in general that the heavier the better.  But heavy all the time =burnout, and is why Bryan came up with the wonderful ideas of deconditioning and progressive loading throughout a cycle.
 
TY-mag's interview with Bryan Haycock...an excerpt

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Tell us how it all started.

BH: It all started out of frustration, really. I'd been lifting naturally for about twelve years and found myself unable to grow further. It was obvious that the only way to get bigger was to get stronger, but I couldn't get stronger until I got bigger. It was a catch-22. So I began to study all of the methods of traditional training: sets, reps, rest, exercises, diet, periodization, etc.

After I'd put it all into a single picture, I realized that the research we were using to build muscle was never intended to explain muscle growth at all. We as bodybuilders had borrowed it from European strength researchers and coaches and twisted it to conform to our needs. Basically, we interpreted it to say what we wanted it to say. Even worse, we were using outdated research looking at stress and aerobic metabolism to try to grow bigger muscles.

T: Interesting. Give us an example.

BH: One example is the idea of &quot;super compensation. This idea, first described in the mid-50s by a Russian scientist named Yakovlev, was used to explain glycogen replenishment in the liver. It had nothing to do with muscle hypertrophy. The whole concept is just a gross misunderstanding and misapplication of the research and human physiology. Nevertheless, it became the foundation for traditional bodybuilding routines.

About this same time, research looking into the actual mechanisms of muscle growth began to appear. As I compared the research used to justify the training methods of the day, I realized that those studies didn't say anything about how a muscle grew. They only explained how the body stores glycogen, or if it was actual exercise research, it was about how to train a track athlete for the competitive season. Like I said before, they were simply misapplying research from another field.

Anyway, to make a long story short, after comparing all the research, both good and bad, with current methods of training, obvious holes and unnecessary elements in traditional training beliefs became apparent.

T: So, HST is your answer or &quot;fix&quot; to these problems?

BH: Well, it's actually just a logical conclusion from the available information. The only way to discredit HST is to discredit the studies that lead to it. People of course will do this and I might have nothing to say. I believe in what we've observed about muscle cells; others will choose not to. At that point it really isn't an argument about HST's validity; it's an argument about the validity of science and technology.

T: Bryan, if you could, give us a brief rundown of what HST is.

BH: HST is a method of &quot;loading,&quot; as opposed to simply &quot;exercising&quot; a muscle in order to make it grow larger. This is done without regard to muscle performance, although most people inevitably get much stronger. Each muscle group is trained at least every 48 hours. The easiest way to do that is to do full-body workouts, three times per week. The 48 hour frequency is based on the time course of changes in muscle-protein synthesis after a workout.

The weight is progressively increased each time you train a given muscle group. This is possible because you don't start using 100% of your max. You work up to it over a two-week period. As the load increases, the reps will drop to accommodate the increasingly heavier weight, until you're eventually using negatives.

The volume (number of sets and exercises) is kept low in order to accommodate the frequency of training. The payoff (i.e. growth) from more frequent training outweighs the payoff from increasing volume. Then there's a week or so of strategic deconditioning. This is done to deal with what's called the &quot;rapid training effect&quot; or sometimes called the &quot;repeated bout effect.&quot; Strategic deconditioning is a way of making the muscle more sensitive to the growth stimulus of training, making the muscle more like when you first began training.

Probably the most important elements or principles of HST are progressive load, training frequency tuned to take advantage of post-workout protein synthesis rates, and strategic deconditioning.</div>
 
<div>
(scientific muscle @ Apr. 22 2007,12:03)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Lcars, you can grow on submaximal loads...decondition, then when doing lighter loads, if you lift the weights as fast as possible, you will recruit more MUs and produce more force.  You can get full recruitment at 65% I am sure of this, and incidently that is where I started the loads in my recent cycle.  Lift those weights fast and hard.  I actually sometimes yell when doing light pendlay rows as it psyches me up to 'throw' the weight into my abs and then a controlled drop.

I agree in general that the heavier the better.  But heavy all the time =burnout, and is why Bryan came up with the wonderful ideas of deconditioning and progressive loading throughout a cycle.</div>
i tried this for several cycles with some good results,but as time went by the gains began to slow again and the workouts became brutal especially when the weights start going up and the amount of exercises.

lifting 200lbs for 15rm is not the same as lifting 400lbs for 15rm,you just cant speed up and throw the weights around,so im playing with new ideas at he moment.

i may however give basic hst and max stim a go soon.im also not comfortable with just the basic compounds anymore,i need iso's: trap work,laterals,tri's and bi's etc
the workouts became too long.

having said that the 5x5 routine has also spyked my interest.
 
my old hst workout consisted of:

flat bench 2 sets
incline/decline bench 2 sets
military press 2 sets
side laterals 2 sets
rear laterals 2 sets
2 warmup and 1 effective set of deads.
squats or legpress 2 sets
calves 2 sets
shrugs 2 sets
bi's 2 sets
tri's 2 sets

ouch! what a killer
 
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