My 15RM weights look like a joke ! How can I make them have more impact?

S

shiphen

Member
Hi

On an HST program, how do I make the 15RM days 'count'?

Background:
I am just preparing an HST program for myself. I have Strategically Deconditioned nicely, but... looking at those starting 15RM weights, I know that I will fly through them, barely noticing them - no, not even at 15 reps.

I mean looking at the weights they look like a bit of a joke. The weights are so light !

For example my 10RM Leg Press just before I deconditioned was 224Kg x10 reps (i.e. 493lbs). But now according to my spreadsheet I am to do two sets of 15 reps of... just 129 Kg!
(In my spreadsheet I have done my calculations by working backwards from training day 6, dropping 5% each day.)

- How can I make them 'count' (i.e. have more impact!) ?
- Go slower?
- If so, how many seconds per lift and how many seconds for each lowering of the weights?

To be honest, I dont want to spend any longer in the gymn than necessary, so I am reluctant to slow down each lift more than I have to.

I objectives in doing HST type training are:
- to spend less time in the gymn (with just 3 quick visits per week),
- strain the mind less (less CNS fatigue - I am now in my very late 49s),
- and feel less soreness (i.e. DOMS).

Also I am planning on only doing 25-30 seconds rest between sets. Does that sound about right?
cheers

John
John Smith
 
start at a higher % and double up ie, 85,85,,90,90,95,100. instead of 75,80,85,90,95,100. or instead of doing 15reps in the first few workouts do more reps but stop one short of faliure.
 
I start at 80% of my RM and spread out the increments between 80% and 100% of my RM. I definitely don't ever go below 70% of the RM.
 
Okay now I'm totally confused!

This was supposed to be Day1 of my 15RMs - the "easy day", right?
But this was MUCH harder than I thought!

Exactly how much burn are we expected to feel on day 1?

I have just returned from the gym where I discovered that:
a) I seem to have deconditioned much more than I thought I would
b) There is a HUGE increase in difficulty (for me) between 10 reps and 15 !

Basically today I was starting to get a bit of burn during the last 5 reps of the first 15 reps for each exercise. I then waited 30 seconds or so and did my second set whereupon I got a HUGE burn towards the end of the second set.

In short (and in direct contradiction to my earlier post at the top of this thread !!), it now seems like I have OVER-estimated my 15RMs.

I think my mistake may have been that I have under-estimated how much condition I have lost in the last 17 days (although the first week didnt really count because I was doing a lot of aerobic running and some swimming.)

But it's difficult to know for sure because if I try REALLY hard, I may be able to cope with quite a lot of burn before I hit my *actual* "max" for each exercise!

Background:
I exactly know my (pre-deconditioning) 10RMs, but rather than discover my real 15RMs (and 5RMs), which would mean beating myself up like crazy in the gym to discover exactly what my maximums are and then presumably deconditioning all over again, I decided to ESTIMATE my 15RMs (and 5RMs). To acheive this I simply took my 10RMs and divided by 1.20 (on the assumption that if you add 20% to a 15RM you can get an estimate of your 10RMs).

For example two weeks ago I was cheerfully doing a bench press of 65Kg x10 reps x2 sets.
After my deconditioning I now estimate 63Kg as my 10RM.
63Kg divided by 1.20 gives 53Kg as my estimated 15RM.
Then if I subtract 5% five times in a row (ie a drop of 77%) I should get to my Day 1 weight.
And 77% of 53Kg is 41Kg.
But when I actually *did* my 15 reps of 41Kg, I started to get quite a lot of 'burn' (lactic acid presumably).
And on my second set (after 30 seconds recovery) I was rather stunned to discover that couldnt complete the set!

Likewise on my lateral pull-downs, pre-deconditioning I was doing 215 Kg (x10 reps x2sets).
So I estimated that my current 10RM would be 210Kg. By dividing by 1.20 you get a 15RM estimate of 175Kg.
Multiply by 77% gives a Day 1 value of 135Kg for my 15RM.

In practice, although this time I *could* complete 15 Reps twice there was a bit of burn...
And somehow I doubt that I will be able to do 175Kg (x15reps x2 sets) in two weeks time.

Where have I gone wrong?

For one thing, how much drop in RMs should one expect from all that decoditioning?
I only estimated a few percent drop - perhaps that was my mistake.
Maybe I should have estimater more like a 15% drop !

Either way... NOW what should I do? I appear to have trained on too heavy weights on my very first day of HST.
If I do another 9 days of deconditioning I will probably lose a further 15% of my strength... disaster!

- Any advice?

John
 
Why exactly do you not think you'll be able to do your 15 RMs in two weeks? You'll likely have gained a bit of strength by then, and be able to cope with 15 rep sets better by then. I would just go with what you've got planned.
 
as tot said,also drop the 15s to one set for now if its difficult,and take longer between sets,doing 15 reps is harder than you think.
 
There are times when you will have to rely on experience. If you start a set and you realize that the weight is not right for that day, either drop it and adjust it, or do what you must to make that set work for you. It may be that you need to pick up the rep tempo so you don't burn out too quickly, or it may be that you need to slow things down. Often times, during the early days of the 15s I will simply rep out, meaning, I won't stop at 15 reps, I'll just keep going until I hit that sweet spot. This really helps me keep my elbows healthy when doing tricep extensions.
 
Bryan Haycock said:
Often times, during the early days of the 15s I will simply rep out, meaning, I won't stop at 15 reps, I'll just keep going until I hit that sweet spot. This really helps me keep my elbows healthy when doing tricep extensions.
Click to expand...

Please can you say some more about this "sweet spot". What does it feel like for you? i.e. How much 'burn' are you feeling? And are you doing two sets of the 15s?

I did my second 15s last night. On most of my exercises I felt gentle burn after about 10 reps going to moderate or fairly strong burn by 15 reps.
Unsurprisingly if I slow down the lifts (or take as shorter break between sets) I get the burn sooner. I dont know if this is realistic but am trying to do the entire training session done within 1 hour.

Question: Slow reps do take up precious time, so which is a better use of time say 15 very slow reps or a larger number done faster?

With thanks

John
 
John

Welcomer to HST, its a shoker when you realise that the jockey 15's are kicking your butt, right? ;)

The sweet spot you have to find it for yourself, is where you feel things starting to come together for your ultimate goal! 15's are a joint/muscle preparation for later much heavier weights.

The burn is normal and part ofthe lactic acid flushing necessary to get your joints going nicely, don;t sweat it too much tryintg to figure out exact figures, feels or any of the like.:D

You will feel when its right, follow your instincts and don't abuse your body simply make it work hard and you will reap the rewards!

I'm sure in no time at all you willl be cruising and loving how HST gets you to where you want, wtach it though as it will get to a time when things slow down, then it is time to get creative...we're all here to help.

As you can see Bryan himself gets on the threads every now and then.

Enjoy mate...and have patience...its the best medicine for anxiousness!

Cheers:cool:
 
Thanks Fausto. One thing still puzzles me. Are you really saying that lactic acid actually helps the joints in some way? If so, does anyone know what the mechanism might be?
For one thing the source of the lactic acid (i.e. the muscles) is generally a bit of distance away from the muscles... Or is it about mechanically polishing the faces of the joints... or what?

Cheers

John
 
shiphen said:
Thanks Fausto. One thing still puzzles me. Are you really saying that lactic acid actually helps the joints in some way? If so, does anyone know what the mechanism might be?
For one thing the source of the lactic acid (i.e. the muscles) is generally a bit of distance away from the muscles... Or is it about mechanically polishing the faces of the joints... or what?

Cheers

John
Click to expand...

Not that easy to explain in a few lines, the biochemistry is rather complex however I will get some extracts for you to start getting into it!

HST faq e-book said:
HST is laid out in 2 week blocks of 6 workouts (=increments) because this is what it generally takes you to go from one RM to another (e.g. from 15RM to 10RM, or from 10RM to 5RM). This doesn't apply to everyone though, so in order to keep the increments as linear as possible (reduce zig-zag) you can, as mentioned, repeat workouts. The other option is simply to reduce the estimated 15RM and/or 10RM, then make up the slack on the bottom end by repeating workouts (to avoid starting out at too light weights for your liking). Since the object of 15s is to induce lactic acid, you can increase the metabolic work by slowing down the reps to compensate for the lower load.
Again - the frequency and progression after SD is what makes you grow, not hitting any predetermined RM - which in itself is affected by a number of factors (almost) unrelated to hypertrophy.
Click to expand...

HST faq e-book said:
Before you give up completely on the 15 rep range, try lowering the weight... The 15s will accomplish what they are designed to even if the weight isn't that heavy. It just has to burn like the "dickens". So, slow down the pace, squeeze and stretch, and try to enjoy them. You should feel tired afterwards, but there isn't any real benefit (size wise) from killing yourself.
The 15s are designed to condition your tendons for the upcoming heavy loads. During the first 2 weeks of 15s, you are only going for intense burning. You want the kind of burn that starts small but then by the end of the set you can hardly bear it. Do whatever it takes to both get this burn, as well as increase the weight every workout.
Manipulate the tempo, use hold-flex methods, or any other method to make the set "effective", meaning mechanically taxing on the muscle. But remember, fatigue is not the goal, a deep aching sensation in the muscle itself is the goal.
The "high rep" training is only there to prepare joints and tendons for future heavy loading. Flushing tissue with lactate stimulates angiogenesis and stimulates tendon growth. (Hunt TK, Hussain MZ. Can wound healing be a paradigm for tissue repair? Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1994 Jun;26(6):755-8.) The 15s are designed simply to flush all tissues and joints (as far as possible) with lactate to encourage angiogenesis for blood flow and tendon growth to better endure subsequent heavy loads (e.g. 5s and negatives)
You will adapt to HST quite quickly if you follow the method closely. It will take about 2 weeks to adapt. I have been watching closely at least 10 people using HST training. Some are doing it natural others are using "assistance". Every person has complained of the 15s "kicking their butt". It burns too much or they feel "fried". Then, when they get to the 10s 2 weeks later they are singing my praises.:) Even if they don't understand why they are doing them they will benefit from it later. Whole body workouts are demanding, especially when reps are high. Keeping the over all volume in check will be your key to success.
Click to expand...
 
> The "high rep" training is only there to prepare joints and tendons for future heavy loading. Flushing tissue with lactate stimulates angiogenesis and stimulates tendon growth

Ok, so it does sound like flushing joint and tendons (and presumably entire body) with lactate that is produced by anaerobic exercise DOES make the tendons and joints stronger. Interesting.

(Btw, I always thought anaerobic exercise created lactic acid but apparently this is not true - albeit that two are very similar molecules.)

In passing I am surprised to see that muscle stiffness i.e. DOMS (Delayed Onset Muscel Soreness) is not caused by lactate. If fact from what I can see it seems to be mainly eccentric exercise (the muscle lengthening when under load type, yes? that causes DOMS. All very surprising...
 
One thing to remember is that the CNS becomes downregulated with SD but it will get upregulated within a couple of workouts. Your strength is neuromuscular in nature so it is connected to the former. As Tot said, your strength should go up fairly sharp once you're lifting again. I think we all dread the SD a little because we will feel a bit weakened by the end of it. But thats part of the game.
 
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