Need some advice about volume

S

Stemad

New Member
First of all,this is my first post so i want to say hello to all.

Im right about to start training after a 3 years pause. I've designed a simple HST routine but i have some doubt. Here it is:

Deadlifts
Leg Press
Dumbell Bench Press
Barbell Bent Over Row
Overhead Press (Push Press in late 5's)
Pulldown

My main doubt is the volume per mini cycle. In some articles i read to do 1x15 2x10 3x5 , in some other articles like the hst faq Bryan suggest to do 2x15 2x10+1x10 and 2x5 + 1x5 instead. So what's the right thing to do? I had the impression that increasing the series when the reps decrease was the right thing to do, but the hst faqs confused me a little. Can someone shed some light on the matter for me?

Second question, what do you think about the exercice selection? Too much overlap? I would prefer not to squat, because for my physical conformation i tend to feel back pain: i need to incline the torso too much forward to go down.

Stefano
 
Your exercise selection is excellent. The only thing you'll need to watch out for is lower back recovery. You might want to do deadlifts every other workout, so you can handle it.

As far as volume is concerned, this is addressed in the FAQ, linked here: http://thinkmuscle.com/forum/showthread.php?12723-How-many-sets-and-how-to-determine-it This is one of the best articles in the forum, so read it carefully.

Basically volume is a very individual thing. Some guys only need one set or two, other guys grow better with lots of sets and reps. Start low with one or two sets, and then increase it as needed. I usually shoot for about 30 reps per exercise, (2x15, 3x10, 6x5) and I decrease the volume once the loads get extreme during the 5s, and do as much as possible.
 
Also, the number of exercises is an important factor to consider. Obviously if you are doing 12 different exercises, then 1 set is probably plenty. If you are only doing 3 exercises though, then you will likely need to compensate with more sets. (12x1=12 total sets, 3x4=12 total sets)
 
Thanks, very informative! Yeah that's a good article, it was exactly the one i readed but mine was in a pdf i had on my hard disk. So the general idea is to find the general minimum volume that work for me and tune up the routine on that.

Yeah, i was under the impression that dealifting that often could cause back problems. I think i will deadlift every workout untill the 5, then every other workout.

Thanks for the useful answer :)
 
With Volume always start low and see how you respond..volume it a tricky thing of doing just enough...and not to much at the same time.

You are better off to start low and increase only if you need to.
 
Yeah,in fact I practised the form of the main compound yesterday, without weight, and actually I am so unconditioned that I'm pretty sore. Today first day of hst, given the two years SD and my lame conditioning level, starting with 1x15 should be plenty! Can't wait to hit the gym :)
 
Whatever you do stick with it and keep lifting three times a week even if you’re sore, your body will adapt. I went through something similar at least with my upper body which I hadn’t done any exercises for in about 15 years. However, I got off luck with my legs since I’d been running hills during that time.
 
So, just finished my first week of 15's. Ended up doing 2 sets of almost everything apart from the overhead press, which i've done only one. I eyeballed my maxes and weights for the cycle because i wouldn't want to spoil the extended deconditioning period by testing maxes. in the end i choosed almost everything well apart for leg presses weight, which i set up too big, and ended up being "unable to walk sore" for 3-4 days. I think next week i will simply repeat this week weights for the leg pres.

In the end, my bodyweight raised by 2 kg (4,4 lbs) in the first week and my waist stayed about the same, and im pretty happy, even if probably it's mostly water (i radically changed my diet and started creatine supplementation, im averaging around 160-180 g of proteins, 250-300 g of carb, and 70-90 of fat per day).
 
Stemad, I'm going to hijack your topic if you don't mind.
HST advocates doing limited volume of 1-2 sets with the premise that more frequent workouts compensate for reduced volume.
In my case, within my full body workout I'm only doing 2 heavy sets of bench press for pecs, starting a new weight from 3-2, or even 2-2 and building up to 5-2 (or less frequently 5-4) in 2-3 workouts. Total rep count is 6-7, sometimes 4-9. Can I assume that the fact that I'm still making strength progress means I'm on the right track? I did make some size gains but that I only measure once per whole cycle.
 
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Hi Rihad, no problem ;)

Well im sure there is people a lot more knowledgeable than me to answer your question. However, i will try. For sure if you're gaining strenght it's a positive thing i think, however with hst you can in theory keep to gain hipertrophy even if you aren't gaining strenght anymore, with the aid of the SD. I think the better indicator if you are on the right track or not, it's the mirror. I guess if you are seeing constant improvement in your before/after pictures, you are on the right track, otherwise you are not ;)
I can tell you that when i was lifting some years ago, HST was the program that made me gain the most weight and muscle of all, so it definitely work for me, and probably for most people. It's a shame a lot of the bodybuilding world look at you like an alien and follow faithfully their 5 days body splits, because the future of training lie in solid principles like those of hst.

Make sure to eat a lot, calculate your BMI, add 500 kcal if you are an active person, add 500 more cal if you are hiperactive, and add 300 kcal on top on that for every lb of muscle you want to gain (progressively). With this and constant training you will keep growing steadily! Hope this help
 
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Bryan has also advocated getting in 30 reps for upper body and even as high as 60 reps for lower body.

Always start ton the low end and if your not growing and gaining weight check your macros and total calories. You have to eat to grow. Then when that is correct consider adding volume.

Remember you have to do just enough to grow muscle ... But at the same time you can do to much.

It's a fine line that unfortunatly takes time to find the right balance.
 
Joe.Muscle said:
Bryan has also advocated getting in 30 reps for upper body and even as high as 60 reps for lower body.
Click to expand...
Can you link to his posting contradicting 1-2 sets per MG?

Sets will be limited to 1-2 per exercise. There is no problem with a single set per body part as long as it is a maximum effort and/or the rep tempo and form is strictly controlled or the weight is extremely heavy preventing further sets.
Click to expand...

If I did 30 reps on inclined bench with the effort I'm putting in (4-8 total reps), I couldn't do this 3 times a week.
 
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Strenght and muscle size decrease with age mainly because testosterone start to decrease after 30. That said, at 32 you are unlikely to feel the effect of decreased T unless you have pathologic low T (lab test tell you that anything over 250 ng/dl is good, in reality men that have 500 or more feel a lot better that men that have under 500. I have been measured 380 ng/dl last year, and i wasn't feeling really good to be honest, now i feel better maybe it was a bad period of my life, but i plan to re test it).

That said, i've read some studies, and i have some empiric evidence, that low t don't prevent you to gain muscle in the gym if you train and eat correctly. See this study:

Serum testosterone, body composition, and strength of young adults.
(PMID:1272003)

The relationship between serum testosterone (ST), body composition, and static strength was studied in 26 college females and 16 male college football players. In addition, the transient effect of weight training on ST was studied in 10 college males (5 skilled and 5 unskilled weight trainers), 12 male high school students, and 5 female college students. ST, measured by radioimmunoassay, ranged from 333.7 to 848.1 ng/100 ml in males, and from 32.8 to 121.5 n/100 ml in females. The high school subjects had significantly lower levels of ST. Correlations between serum testosterone, body composition (measured by densitometry), and static strength (grip and backlift) were nonsignificant in males and females. Comparisons of subjects with the highest and lowest levels of testosterone within each sex showed no significant differences in strength or body composition. Serum testosteroneincreased 111.4 +/- 96.l ng/100 ml (X +/- SX) following a weight training session in the male college group, but failed to increase in the college females or high school males. There were no significant differences in testosterone increases between the skilled and unskilled male weight trainers. Maximal exertion may be necessary for an increase in serum testosterone to occur. Lack of an increase intestosterone by high school males or college females may have been due to a submaximal effort during the weight training exercise.

 
That said, high t definitely help to gain muscle, but low-medium level of T due to age don't prevent you to gain muscle mass, but you have probably to commit yourself more to have slower result than a copy of yourself with more T.
 
HST_Rihad said:
Can you link to his posting contradicting 1-2 sets per MG?



If I did 30 reps on inclined bench with the effort I'm putting in (4-8 total reps), I couldn't do this 3 times a week.
Click to expand...

If you can't do that 3 times a week...then you have just answered your own question. Don't do it.

It's not contradicting to the HST principals. The principals tell you when to consider more or less sets.

Some of us can handle more reps some cant.

Here the link to Bryan Article.
http://www.flexonline.com/training/how-big-should-you-go
 
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Joe.Muscle said:
If you can't do that 3 times a week...then you have just answered your own question. Don't do it.

It's not contradicting to the HST principals. The principals tell you when to consider more or less sets.

Some of us can handle more reps some cant.

Here the link to Bryan Article.
http://www.flexonline.com/training/how-big-should-you-go
Click to expand...

Oh shot, he really said that. It should be noted that 30 reps at 65% (lower threshold) is much easier to do than at 85% (upper threshold) three times per week. Is 60 reps per bout at 85% what it takes a natural athlete approaching his genetic limits to elevate protein synthesis slightly, i.e. hope for growth? I don't mean myself, but is this really what you guys need to do? I remember Totentanz saying he's now seeing his greatest gains at limited volume @3 times a week even at his level.
 
Here's the deal I made with myself: as long as continue making strength/size gains, I'll be sticking to 1-2 sets. Only when that comes to a stop, will I start gradually increasing volume, change volume by 10% and see if it changes anything.
 
HST_Rihad said:
Oh shot, he really said that. It should be noted that 30 reps at 65% (lower threshold) is much easier to do than at 85% (upper threshold) three times per week. Is 60 reps per bout at 85% what it takes a natural athlete approaching his genetic limits to elevate protein synthesis slightly, i.e. hope for growth? I don't mean myself, but is this really what you guys need to do? I remember Totentanz saying he's now seeing his greatest gains at limited volume @3 times a week even at his level.
Click to expand...

We've talked about this quite a bit, and if you look at what I am doing just as an example, between the different lifts for each muscle group, I'm doing between 30-60 reps per muscle group in the 15s and 10s. I'm going to reassess during the 5s and I'm leaning more toward 30 total reps for each muscle group rather than the higher. But my point in our discussions was that absurdly high volume is not necessary just because you are advanced. Previously, I was doing my base of 30-60 reps and then up to 80 reps per muscle group on top of that. It worked and I thought it was optimal but now that I've cut volume back, I'm gaining better than with the higher volume.
 
Also, it is important to look at weekly volume. If you are doing a once/week split, and doing 9 sets for back, you are doing the same volume as if you were doing 3x/week fullbody with 3 sets/workout for back. I agree with you HST_Rihad that as long as you are seeing increases on the bar, and you are hitting it 3x/week, then lowish volume is the way to go.
 
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