Negatives and stuff

[semajes]

I'm wondering if I am wasting my time still doing exercises with my 5rm while doing negatives with other exercises in excess of my 1rm.

For instance, I'm doing chin-ups with 50 pounds strapped around my waist. But I can't do this kind of thing with 1-arm rows, so I've continued to use my 5rm. I suspect that any damage I'm doing is the result of the chin-ups and that the rows are just wasting my time/energy.

Similarly, between the chin-ups and very heavy deadlifts, I suspect that my biceps are getting all they need and I should drop the curls at this point. Maybe even tricep and delt work too? Don't really know. Opinions?

 

[brisbanemick]

Smashing yourself on the big compound work is definatly the go. That should be the main focus on any workout.
I personaly like to only pick out a small handfull of isolation to finish myself off by doing 1 set of each

If you have worked the body to it's full potential on the compounds, that's all you'll need if any. Listen to the body, that never lies.

If you do chins useing a supinated grip, that's all the bicep work they'll need in theory, but once again, if you want to finish bi's off....I like to do just one set of single arm preachers to satisfy myself I'm "done".

 

[semajes]

Generally, I tend to agree, however at this point I'm doing heavy negatives with almost everything -- including curls and other isolation exercises. So, I'm not entirely sold that curls with 110% of my 1rm are not causing some damage.

Anyway, the biggest part of my question is, I suppose, about RBE. The 1 arm rows are also a compound exercise which allows for a lot of weight. However, I'm able to use a lot more weight when I do the chin-ups. So, maybe a better way to ask the question is: Is it likely that my lats etc. have grown resistant to the strain caused by rows w/5rm, due to my work with the weighted chin-ups?

 

[liegelord]

That's a good question semajes. I alternate dips with flat bench, and my bent rows with chins. I do dips with 115x5, with body weight that's 330 pounds, but my bench is an embarrassing 255x5, that's a difference of 75 lbs. Anyone have an opinion on whether the bench, with such a big difference in load, is effective? Would the muscles involved, as semajes asked, have grown resistant to the lower load?

I know the muscles are not being hit in exactly the same way. I know the load is important, it's why I drop isolation exercises in the neg's. I didn't see any reason to do BB curls with 120 when I can do weighted chins with 100 lbs + bodyweight, the difference in load on the biceps is 195 pounds.

 

[brisbanemick]

I think I see where ya comin' from. Let me try and get this to make sence to the Q.

O.K, so ya hitting 2 diff compounds to target back and bis, being chins and rows.
I think then it is important to smash ya self on the compound where you move more weight, followed by the exercise which is the lighter load. All the work has been done in the first exercise to hit those muscle groups hard and fast when fresh.

Like, I do supinated grip lat pull downs followed by bent over bar bell rows. The B/B rows I feel squeeze in the back better than the pull downs, so it's a different target hit.
Even though the weight is lighter, new fibre recruitment is still being brought in to play.
It's like if doing break down sets. Let's say benching 100kg to failure, stripping the weight by 20% down to 80kg and punching out an extra 5 reps. I mean, in that type of training, it's those extra reps that count right, plus you're activating extra fibre recruitment.
Same ####, different barrel so to speak.

Same goes with pre exhaustion. Smashing on the compound of lat pull downs followed by let's say S/A preacher curls or B/B curls.

So to try and answer your question more simple, have your lats grown resistent to s/a rows as a result of the heavy load caused by weighted chins, I would say to a degree, yes, but as i tried to outline above, if you start with the compound where you move more weight followed by the S/A rows, you would still activate new fibre recruitment.
I also feel that by doing bent over rows with strict slow form, it seems to hit the back of the shoulders better too. I love to do B/Over b?b rows in front of the mirror to check for perfect form, and see the whole arms and shoulder muscles under tight contraction. You don't get that doing the lat p.down in the same way. So even though they are compounds designed to hit the same muscle groups, I also feel they target them different as well.

Did this make sence to the question asked.

If not, I'll just go back to my corner.LO.L

 

[liegelord]

Thanks Mate. I alternate the rows with chins though, I don't do them on the same day. At least strength wise (an even lighter load)
it would be really unproductive once I got in the 2nd week of 10's and beyond. There's no way I can do heavy chins and then have anything left for rows.

 

[Jester]

Bear in mind that there are more muscles in the upper back than just lats - when talking about chins & rows and overlap.

I can't imagine that doing bench press @ 255 has an effect when you're doing dips @ 330. I believe that RBE would prevent you gaining a hypertrophic effect from the bench.

 

[brisbanemick]

Quote[/b] (Jester @ Aug. 11 2005,11:06)]Bear in mind that there are more muscles in the upper back than just lats - when talking about chins & rows and overlap.
I can't imagine that doing bench press @ 255 has an effect when you're doing dips @ 330. I believe that RBE would prevent you gaining a hypertrophic effect from the bench.

Yep, I agree with that mate. That definatly makes sence.

 

[liegelord]

That's concerned me for a while now. I've considered dropping the bench because of it. My chins & bent rows are pretty close though i.e., rows 270x5, chins 70x5 with body weight 287.

Does anyone else have such large differences in weight with such exercises?

 

[Fausto]

semajes

Quote[/b] ]For instance, I'm doing chin-ups with 50 pounds strapped around my waist. But I can't do this kind of thing with 1-arm rows, so I've continued to use my 5rm.

It is actually fine, as you are simply customizing part of your training for one partcular muscle group.

Quote[/b] ]Similarly, between the chin-ups and very heavy deadlifts, I suspect that my biceps are getting all they need and I should drop the curls at this point. Maybe even tricep and delt work too?

The isolators would just hit the bicep/tricep some more, if you feel stimulated in these areas then drop them yes, else do the extra just to top things, it is a personal feel

The truth is if you leave the bicep/tricep work, you will keep them fresh for the heavy work!

Don't drop the delts though, unless you are doing incline bench, but then that still leaves the medial/rear delts to be worked on!

 

[Joe G]

I would'nt worry about the differences comparing excercises. I mean just because I squat 225 lb. doesnt make a 100 lb. leg extension useless right?

Your muscles are in a different position with different leverages when using different exercises, just because a weight is heavier doesn't make it more effective (in my opinion).


Joe G

 

[jvroig]

Quote[/b] ]I would'nt worry about the differences comparing excercises. I mean just because I squat 225 lb. doesnt make a 100 lb. leg extension useless right?

Hmmm... tough call.
On one hand, Joe is right. It's not just about the weight. It's also about the stretch it provides.

On the other hand, sometimes you do have to worry about and rethink your exercises. If a specific muscle group you want to specialize in, for example, is already hit by some really heavy core lifts, the added exercise/s for it should ideally provide significantly more stretch for that muscle group if those added exercise/s are pretty low compared to the core compounds. Let's take the age old example of wanting to specialize in the triceps, aside from the number of heavy compound core lifts you already have, you decide to add in isolation to specialize in the tricpes. So you add triceps pushdown. That won't work. It hardly provides more stretch than the core movements. What would work is skullcrushers. That gives greater stretch. Of course, if your only goal is additional metabollic stimulation, then go ahead and do the pushdowns, it really won't matter what the stretch is so much since you are just after additional metabollic work.

Regards,
-JV