New training program I might try....

[scientific muscle]

You regular guys know me well, and I am considered almost an expert on HST, but truth is I have never done a basic HST cycle!!! I have of course done max-stimulation training which is basically a branch of HST, but I think I owe it to myself and this forum to do at least one full cycle of HST.

My lower back strain woke me up to the fact that maxing out on my lifts all week long is bound to catch up with me. And the fact that I need at least 20 lb.s on my frame before my height-to-weight ratio is adequate for maximal powerlifting, led me to think I should do a pure hypertrophy cycle.

It has been awhile since I was doing max-stim and my goals have changed since then. My next goal is to add lean mass to my frame for powerlifting. I wil go over the basics of the program and pose any questions:

<u>Core Exercises
</u>Squat
Bench
Deadlift
Chins
Dips
Military Press
maybe DB rows?

Frequency
3 times/week full body as usual. Will have to alternate squats and deadlifts once things get heavier.

Volume
You all know I favor high-volume after korte's program blew my thighs up, and the fact that I am so darn conditioned I almost cannot get sore anymore, I CAN HANDLE HIGH-VOLUME! So I will be clustering to 30 reps/exercise....at least.

Load: Progression and Duration of cycle
I will be clustering so I can avoid zig-zagging very easily. The easiest way for me to calculate progression is based on my 1 rm since I already know it for my lifts. I believe hypertrophy cycles should last as long as possible, so I will try to progress slowly. This area is where I could use the most input.
My first thought is to start at 50% of my 1 rm and progress the loads 1.5% each workout (rounding the loads of course) for 30 workouts which will put me at 95% of 1 rm at the end of the cycle at week 10.
Either that or I can just do a standard HST cycle: 2 weeks of 15s/2 weeks of 10s/ 2 weeks of 5s/ +4 weeks of hellish pain (extending the 5s, etc.)....

I am not a big believer in SD, but to be fair I wll start the program right and take a week off of lifting. My back is stiff and I have recently set personal records on almost all my lifts and certainly a week off is going to be a good thing, regardless of any deconditioning effect.

Any constructive criticism is welcome.

 

[scientific muscle]

After looking it over, I modified a few things.

Alternating exercises will be a must, to avoid overtraining.  This will cut the workout down to 3-4 exercises/session.  To counteract this low number of exercises, I will keep the total volume at 50 reps/exercise.  Sounds extreme, but it isn't really.  Many guys do 20 total reps/exercise and do 8 different exercises, that is 160 total reps for the body each workout.  50 reps for three exercises is 150 reps for the whole body.

Another thing I modified was the progression. 50-95% is too wide, I was thinking 60-90% of 1rm would be much more appropiate for a hypertrophy routine.  this would mean starting at 60% of 1rm and progressing 1% each workout (rounding) for 30 workouts to end at 90% of 1rm.

Exercises
Workout A
Squat
Bench
Row

Workout B
Deadlift
Dip
Chinup

I was going to add overhead presses, but it seems to be too much pressing.  And the deltoids get hammered hard doing benching/rows/etc.  I might add a bit of overhead pressing at the end of the workout, but only a set or two.

 

[liegelord]

50 reps is alot, that's 10 sets in the 5's. Except for the number of reps, I think it looks good, I would stick with the OH press though, even if you only do one top set

 

[scientific muscle]

Thanks leige, the more I think about it, you are right, I will keep at least one set of standing presses in there.

50 reps IS alot..I have reason to believe that higher volume is better for hypertrophy, and especially for someone as conditioned as me. Remember steve jones did 8 sets of 5 for BOTH squats and Deadlifts, 3 times/week. That is 80 reps for thighs/core!!! I think 50 reps/bodypart will be survivable...
or maybe I am insane...we'll see.

 

[scientific muscle]

Any other input from HST veterans? LoL, Totentanz, O&amp;G, Peakpower, Joemuscle, Quadancer? I want to make this HST cycle awesome and ALL your input/ideas will be considered. I have a week to formulate the cycle while I stay out of the gym and recover from my bout with Korte for 4 weeks of volume and then another 4 weeks of maxing out. SD was due anyway, this injury just made it more obvious.

 

[Totentanz]

Routine looks solid. That's almost identical to mine, except I'm doing clean and press instead of bench because bench hates me, and I do high pulls on Weds in addition to deads, chins and dips.
50 reps per exercise seems like it would take forever. You might want to consider dropping volume slightly as it gets heavier, but to determine when that is necessary, you'll just have to pay attention to your fatigue levels. Being a max-stim veteran, I'm sure this won't be an issue for you though.

You'll have to do a log for this too, I'm interested to see how a very high volume routine works out.

 

[Peak_Power]

Noob...you should be posting in the beginners board!

Just playing, for a guy of your experience I would suggest 30 reps per bodypart per workout. If it feels too little then you can always go up, but better too little than to commit to 50 reps and then find its killing you. I can't imagine any natural lifter needing more than 30reps, that's 2x15(killer), 3x10(ok), and 6x5(deadly with heavy weights).

My first two bulking cycles were 15reps, and I got results. I mean 3x5 is enough when using the weights you'll be using.

Law of diminishing returns, the first set causes the most microtrauma, the 2nd set a significant amount, the 3rd less, and so on. That's why in the original instructions Bryan says only do 1-2 sets of each exercise.

You said you wanted to do a vanilla HST program then for god's sake do one! Stop modifying it so much!

Noobs always want to mess with the original! gawd.

 

[scientific muscle]

I looked up my old log in the max-stim forum, I did 6-7 exercises and 40 reps/piece for several weeks!!! I ran into overtraining problems for lower back- deads and rows, but this time deads and rows will be separate and squats and deads will be separate also.

How about 40 reps for each exercise and 20 reps for MP?

Workout A
Squat-40
Row-40
Bench-40
MP-20

Workout B
Deadlift-40
Chin-40
Dip-40
MP-20

 

[Lol]

Everybody else has beaten me to it but there are my thoughts:

Like Liege my issue with your set-up as listed was that you had no direct shoulder work. High vol on the squats and deads might be OK (at least initially) but if you drop back a few sets for chest and back that will allow you some time and energy to add in a good few sets for shoulders too.

You are basically doing what I am going to be doing on my next HST cycle except your volume is higher. I will be trying to maintain volume during the cycle so that I am pushing up the amount of work I do along with the loads. Then, by building up volume each cycle I can see if I can cope with more volume over a longer period of time. So one cycle I might try for 25 total reps per exercise per session, the next 30, the next 35 etc.

If I can keep improving in my top loads while doing this then great. However, at some point I will reach a volume that I can't manage for the entire cycle (at least not without taking AAS and having more spare time available to get the job done). Then it might be time to drop volume right back for a shorter cycle to give my body a breather (a bit like Phase II of Korte's program). Perhaps I'll need to do a low vol HST cycle between each high vol cycle? That might help consolidate gains and allow me to focus on some lagging areas or assitance work. Right now I don't know.

Unlike Korte's program, you will eventually be trying to get a lot of reps with your 5RM loads. That's going to be really hard. I wouldn't recommend it for deads at all. Korte's volume phase finishes at 64% of your 1RM whereas you will be hitting around 90% of your 1RM and trying to get 50 reps!  

If there's one thing I've learnt about you Sci, it's that you are certainly a restless one.  

 I can't help thinking that you would continue to make good steady progress if you did several HST cycles back to back (stretching the 5s out) but experimented a bit more gradually with volume. I really think you might find that 50 reps for each exercise during the 5s is actually counterproductive (unless you go the AAS route - and even then it probably wouldn't be necessary). You can only grow so fast, no matter how much you eat, sleep and train. To me it seems like you are jumping in at the deep end rather sooner than is necessary. However, I could well be wrong and I'm all for a bit of experimentation (particularly as you are so good at reporting your results). I look forward to a progress report and any thought you have along the way. We will all benefit from your stout efforts.

I, too, will start a log when this darn cut is out of the way and keep you abreast of my progress (or lack thereof).

 

[scientific muscle]

<div>
(Peak_Power @ Apr. 01 2007,22:28)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I can't imagine any natural lifter needing more than  30reps, that's 2x15(killer), 3x10(ok), and 6x5(deadly with heavy weights).</div>
I have done 6x5...not bad at all. I have done 8x5 also, it just takes balls. And the weights won't get heavy unitl the last couple of weeks, when I will keep a puke bucket nearby...

Seriously though, thanks for the input. I consider what you are saying. I am doing vanilla HST...Bryan himself says the total volume depends largely on the individual.

 

[scientific muscle]

So far the consensus seems to be I will be overtraining with more than 30 reps...

Well, here is quote from Madcow about tolerance to workload, I have to decide carefully how much volume is enough and how much is too much.

Originally Posted by Madcow2 <div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">
Work capacity varies drastically and most people have none or train fairly infrequently and don't put much volume into the big lifts so they lack conditioning. I've done the 3x3 natural and although hard I never thought of quitting it (except during the deads) and it worked well. Many others have done the same. Super_Rice isn't exactly a world level lifter and aside from conditioning in his lower back he made it through with hard work - actually I thought it was too much for him to bite off at this stage so I am really impressed and obviously he's reaped the rewards from it. The 5x5 can be racheted up magnitudes harder than I have it set and combined with all kind of other overlay work - this is tolerated fine by well conditioned naturals (visit www.midwestbarbell.com forums sometime and check out Glenn's posts in the OL forum his lifters backsquat and frontsquat quite a bit and the classic lifts are trained with high volume and hammer them too and this involves a lot of deep squat recoveries - probably more than I can or ever was in shape to handle though). I've tried an OL program straight from a world champ who ran it natural without issue - I was dead in 2 weeks even scaling it back a good amount, literally no point in going on.

So the Smolov is really hard, plenty of well conditioned naturals have done it (I haven't run it myself). Probably have to benchmark what else you can do besides the squatting fairly carefully depending on the individual. The fact that some say you have to be on drugs to do it is more indicative of the level of general conditioning in most trainees today. Probably the best in our country are our top olympic lifters and let me tell you, when some of our up and comers have visited former Soviet and Eastern European countries - they are awed by just how hard those guys train and what they can do both drugged and non-drugged. This is not a rare reaction and it's not like these aren't some hard working guys already. They know how to train and they bust their ass. They've spent years increasing their capacity and workloads (a foreign concept to most trainees). Most people don't know how to train and have only busted their ass in the parameters of low frequency programs where a lot of the volume lies in lighter assistance work. They go in and hope that by doing some random they'll get stronger. They never think to systematically alter the load and scale it over time or spend their time on the exercises that really matter.

Am I surprised to hear this reaction, no. Do I agree with it, no. Do I think the people who have this reaction lack a reference for what the human body can handle, yes. Should these people be doing this program, no.</div>

 

[Lol]

I really like Madcow's attitude and approach. It is exactly how I want to approach my HST/SST programs (systematically altering the load and scaling it over time).

I am also sure that developing as a lifter to the point where you can handle a good amount of volume can only be a good thing (assuming it doesn't bring on a higher incidence of injury). And it'll mean I can eat more!

 

[scientific muscle]

Alright...Leigelord, Totentanz, Peakpower, Lol...all you guys are very experienced and seem to agree that 50 reps is too much at least for the entire cycle.

How about I just stick to 30 reps for all exercises?

Workout A- 30 reps
Squat
Row
Bench
MP

Workout B-30 reps
Deadlift
Chin
Dip
MP

Now it looks like a basic &quot;simplify and win&quot; higher volume vanilla HST routine.

I am confident I can finish the cycle this way...you guys are right 40-50 reps per exercise would quickly lead to overtraining once the loads got heavier.

I plan on adding 10 lb.s during the cycle to end up at 208 bodyweight.

 

[scientific muscle]

30 reps seems plenty and especially when I project the loads of the last week...the last squat workout on wednesday will involve olympic squats with 225 lb.s for 30 total reps; the last workout on friday will start with deadlifting 325 lb.s 30 times...damn.

I definitely wouldn't want to be aiming for 40-50 volume when I look at it that way.

 

[Fausto]

Sci....

Although I'm not in the list of veterans, I'll had my bit...

Welcome to Simplify and Win, your workout is straight out of there

30 reps will be doable if as you say you are used to it, I tried and it became too much. backed down to 5 x 5 instead!

Starting from 1 RM? I also plan my cylces like that!

Here's what I do:

15 - up to 70% of 1RM, this gets me starting at 40%.
10 - up to 85%, which starts me at 55%
5 - up to 95%, which starts me at 65%
negs - 120%, starting me at 90%

It has a lot of zigzag, I know but that is with 5% increments, now with your scheme, you could start at:

15 's - 60% to 70% / 10's - 70 to 80% / 5's - 80 - 90% and then take 90% all the way to 100-120%, where you may use techniques like Max-stim to get there!

Just a thought!

 

[Peak_Power]

I should rephrase what I said:

I know you'd be able to do 50reps, I just think its needlessly too much work for the benefit.

Remember the principle of HST is the minimum volume that will get you results (cause suficient microtrauma), and allow you to train 3 times per week.

So the question is not &quot;is 50reps too much?&quot;, the question is &quot;will I get good results from 30reps&quot;. I can't imagine any natural lifter not getting good results on 30reps, as I said about the law of deminishing returns, all that extra work may be wasted. Remember max-stim is only 20 reps 2 times a week. That extra workout means a lot of extra volume, and less recovery time. Is the extra microtrauma from 20 reps extra worth it?

Then again I may be wrong, but in general its better to start low and increase. So in other words you won't figure out your optimum volume until you've done 2-3 cycles and experimented.

Out of curiousity does anyone know what Bryan does? he recommends only 1-2 sets per bodypart, but I think he does 2 exercises per bodypart. So that would prob work out to about 30-40reps.

Anyway you know your body better than we do, I think this will be a bit of an experiment for you.

PS Sci is a bastard for not including you in the list of vets Fausto, you've been here a few more years than me mate  

 

[Fausto]

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">PS Sci is a bastard for not including you in the list of vets Fausto, you've been here a few more years than me mate </div>

Its all good mate

I don't lift as much as the other guys or himself, thus the oversight

not concerned at all.

 

[quadancer]

I think it's kind of like the 'member rating': it doesn't mean anything. We all know Fausto.
30 reps gets my vote because of this: if you start at 50, and of course, will have to scale that back when the loads increase, what good is your workout doing now? You will be lessening the load, rather than progressing it. That would be okay if your goal was strength only.
Here again, your conditioning is in another ballpark from what you've been doing; the rules may change somewhat at that point.

 

[scientific muscle]

Sorry, Fausto, I couldn't include everybody and just spouted off a few names quickly....

30 reps is plenty now that I think of it. Max-stimulation style clustering will be in the mix, especially towards the end of the cycle. It sounds like I am doing a very similar routine to you Fausto!
How long have you been doing it and any feedback would be cool.

 

[Lifting N Tx]

<div>
(scientific muscle @ Apr. 02 2007,11:50)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Sorry, Fausto, I couldn't include everybody and just spouted off a few names quickly....

30 reps is plenty now that I think of it. Max-stimulation style clustering will be in the mix, especially towards the end of the cycle. It sounds like I am doing a very similar routine to you Fausto!
How long have you been doing it and any feedback would be cool.</div>
Fausto has a log listing his routine

...but he needs to update it!