Official HST training program

Discussion in 'Hypertrophy-Specific Training (HST)' started by HST_Rihad, Jun 22, 2012.

  1. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    I mean this one. Is it still the one suited well for most people? Isn't it a bit hard on ones upper back, I mean chins/rows+rear delts+shrugs? Thanks.
  2. TangoDown

    TangoDown Member

    It's not an official program. It's an example. I don't know why someone would alternate squat with leg press rather than a deadlift. I personally wouldn't see a problem isolating rear delts even though any rowing motion hits them a fair bit, though I don't think it's truly necessary if you're doing a vertical press AND a rowing movement, which I don't see any vertical pressing in the example program.

    And I don't like leg curls, but that's because I've got runners knee and probably chronopatella and any leg curl makes my knees crackle and pop worse than Rice Krispies with pain to boot. But I have heard that leg curls can be effective for rehabbing hamstring tendinosis/tears if done eccentrically.

    IMO, in a nutshell, if you can squat, you don't need leg press, so I'd remove that and replace it with deadlift (obviously volume needs to be lower with deadlift to avoid burnout). Throw away the leg curl, and throw away the rear delt row in favor of an OHP. I'd do a push press over a strict military press for some power development. But rowing/pullup split seems fine, especially if you're worried that your rear delts won't get hit enough for your liking (which IDC about so I only do weighted pullups).

    I personally don't like the example, and that's why if one understands HST, they know that it's a set of principles and thus you develop a program AROUND the principles to fit your needs.
  3. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    Most probably because of ...

    How much lower?

    AFAIK they don't target same muscles. Rear delts are the ones rotating our shoulder blades outside. It's not an overhead pressing movement, which would target mostly front & middle delts and traps. Rear delts don't work much in most other movements. RD are an injury prevention exercise which may happen if front delts are far more developed.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2012
  4. TangoDown

    TangoDown Member

    I've heard that most people get more prone to injury when they only do horizontal pressing (flat press). Alternatively, if you're doing any sort of rowing movement already (DB row, cable row, etc), is it really necessary to also do a rear delt row? What if you deadlift? I would assume any sort of pulling motion is going to be beneficial for the shoulder girdle.

    As for deadlift, I guess that if you're alternating squat and deadlift between sessions you can keep volume in the realm of 2-3 sets, but if you're DLing 3 times a week, I couldn't imagine doing 3 sets of 5 - let alone if you already squat. I would collapse into a fetal position.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2012
  5. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    Those are different movements, mind you, and most probably different muscles are involved. Compare a pulling movement (DB/chins/rows) with this: while standing, lift your arms so they are parallel to the floor. Now spread them apart as if to hug someone you haven't seen in ages. This is the movement rear delts do.

    p.s.: I once was stupid enough to do dips without warming up the muscles first. Was about to do 15 reps, nothing much. But on the 13-th rep I heard this dreaded clappy sound in the middle of my chest. Something broke, or was torn. It took me 2 weeks rehabbing. Although it was 2.5 years ago, I still feel pain in that spot if I dip with sufficient depth. But I still can flat bench press with any depth with as much weight as I can take as if nothing happened. So even seemingly very related muscles arent' involved in different planes of movement.

    I already burned out heavily time after time doing 1 set of 5RM Squats + RDL 3 times a week... So I've started doing this "default" program.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2012
  6. TangoDown

    TangoDown Member

    Let me ask you this; how many powerlifters who bench, OHP, squat, and deadlift, do any sort of rear delt fly or rear delt isolation exercise? Many do dumbbell row, but as you claimed, it's a "different" exercise, so it shouldn't be able to effectively prevent injury, right?

    I don't think you necessarily have to isolate the rear deltoid because it supports all pulling exercises as the anterior delt supports all pushing exercises. Obviously the amount of stimulation the rear delt receives is going to depend on the movement, but unless there is a GROSS imbalance or an injury present, if one does pulling movements like rows or pullups, his rear deltoids should stay sufficiently strong enough to support these movement patterns.

    In terms of pain in your chest when dipping as opposed to benching, you are correct in saying that both are different movements, but the middle of your chest is being stimulated in both. On the dip, you're in a different ROM that is causing pain; probably tendinosis. Different movements can aggravate an injury. I had an AC joint injury, and after a while, it didn't hurt when I put my arms above my head, and not when I did shoulder press; only when I did any sort of pullups. Now it doesn't hurt when I do pullups; only chinups. It's a different movement pattern than pullups, but the AC joint is still the injured joint.

    You said you burned out squatting with your 5 rep max. How long were you squatting with your 5 rep max?
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2012
  7. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    Yeah, you're probably right, I'll keep doing the rear delt flies for a cycle or two, and then might switch to a vertical pushing exercise, getting back to it occasiaonally to be on the safe side.

    It didn't take me long doing my 5RM maxes. 1 set of heavy Squats, (+ 1 set of heavy BP), +1 set of heavy RDL each workout was way too much, even on M-F 2 times a week (I did heavy leg curls+extensions+shrugs on W instead). Depending on how I felt those weights might have felt like 5RM on the first try, gradually going down to 2-4RM. Due to lack of volume on the 5s I made very little progress. So I thought this more intelligent program would be better suited for me.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2012
  8. TangoDown

    TangoDown Member

    I think the problem was that you were DLing 3 times a week. DLing is very taxing on the CNS. I know Starting Strength, which is a protocol for beginners, only has you deadlift every other session, whereas you squat every session (3 times a week). And you only do 1 set with DL, regardless of the fact that you work less frequently with it.

    Plus, if you're continuously working with your maxes, no wonder you burned out.

    In terms of rear delt stuff, are you doing any pulling exercises? I see RDL, but that's it. Any direct work for your back, like pullups/chinups/rows, etc? If you kicked rear delt flies and replaced them with rows, you'd still get the benefit of having your rear delts activated, but also get the benefit of working your entire upper back.
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2012
  9. grunt11

    grunt11 New Member

    Actually powerlifters so seem to do direct rear delt work as the guys at Westside Barbell and Anabolic Minds suggested to me, to balance out all of the Bench work. In fact the template I started with from syattfitness recommends direct rear delt work on both ME and DE bench days.

    Simply doing Rows will likely lead to an imbalance causing rotator cuff problems. I developed a shoulder impingement that was only remedied by direct Rear Delt work, YTIs, and face pulls to balance out all the horizontal pushing. So I would gauge the need for direct rear delt work based on how much pushing you are doing so it might not be necessary if you’re not doing a lot. However, I’ve also often seen a general recommendation to do more, as much as twice as much, pulling movements as pushing to keep a proper balance.
  10. TangoDown

    TangoDown Member

    That makes sense. I've seen some Powerlifting routines that use a **** ton of volume, especially on the bench, so there's a ton of pushing to be done.

    The feck is a face pull?
  11. HST_Rihad

    HST_Rihad Active Member

    <style type="text/css"> p, li { white-space: pre-wrap; } </style> For now I'm doing the sample HST program as is, unchanged. It's been a breath of fresh air so far.

    Coincidentally I've lowered my calories, aiming at more protein this cycle. This fact shouldn't affect the strength by too much. We'll see.

    As for the frequency, good or bad, that's what HST prescribes. Although the HST FAQ certainly does NOT recommend doing 5-ish Squats and DL 3 times a week, let alone do them together.

    Guys, is HST still the way to bulk? There's been some research and trend recently to train a muscle 2 times a week, for the sake of doing more in-session volume. It's been determined that training a muscle at high loads 2 times a week is no worse than 3 times in terms of resulting growth. You might want to google for a paper by Wernbom et al, 2007, "The Influence of Frequency, Intensity, Volume and Mode of Strength Training on Whole Muscle Cross-Sectional Area in Humans".
  12. grunt11

    grunt11 New Member

    Here’s what a Face Pull looks like:

    Done lower it’s called a Rear Delt Row. Another popular way to do it is with bands.

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