Opinions on new frequency theory

H

Howard Roark

New Member
Well I used to be on this site quite some time back, however I decided to start my own business and have a child, and I have not worked out in about 3 years. They say men spend the first half of their lives attempting to make money at the expense of their health, and the latter part of their lives using that money to get their health back. Well, that was almost me.....

But I never forgot about HST, even though in the past I never made it beyond the 1st week of 10s. I am now going into my 2nd week of 5's, and the results are awesome so far, despite a lousy diet. I'm up 13 lbs. of lean mass, and down 7.5 lbs. of fat and 1 1/2 inches off my waist.

My question is this..

During this cycle even as early as the 15's, I've found that if I take 2-3 days off between workouts, I always feel better, stronger, and actually look bigger than the EOD schedule. I have also found this in my past workouts, using a 1 on, 2-3 off. In other words, for me the less I train to an extent, the more I gain.

I also recently read a post on here stating that during one's SD they may grow a little, as you grow when you "rest", not when you train.

So in my case, why not just use the standard progressive overload workouts, but in a 1 on 2-3 day off method as opposed to the 3 day per week schedule? I'm not trying to re-invent the HST wheel, just curious as to what everyone may think as there are even so many posts on here stating HST is NOT the workout they feel they'll go with forever.

Thanks for any thoughts! I'll post my full cycle 1 results in another 2 weeks in the pinned thread.
 
FAQ:

Research has demonstrated that you can train a muscle before it is fully recovered structurally and not inhibit its ability to continue to recover. So, HST uses this evidence and calls for repeated loading (training) every 48 hours or so to keep the anabolic activity of the muscle high, while trying to stay slightly ahead of the structural recovery curve by constantly increasing the load each workout. Staying ahead of the structural recovery curve is really key to elicit real growth in a person who has lifted for quite a while. Of course, injuries can develop over time if care isn't taken to take time to heal, and prepare the tendons for repeated heavy bouts of lifting (SD and 15s serve this purpose in HST).


generally, higher frequency is something I've had good luck with...but heuristically, "heavy" deadlifting is maybe not meant to be done w/ high frequency.
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I agree. Towards the end of a cycle in particular I will throw in an extra day off whenever I need it. My joints need it and I feel the workouts benefit from it.
J
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Frequency is highly individual with regard to recovery ability. If 2-3 days off makes you feel better, then do it, you are still using the HST principles.
 
Hi

I'm with sci... here.

Dan's got something on his website about using a lower frequency (twice/week being as effective as thrice/week), I personally use a 2x week frequency and am not unhappy.

However there may be a time where you will find the need for increased frequency, then it is time to switch to 3x/week.
 
I also agree with Sci. If you know that the extra day or two is resulting in more growth then by all means do so.

Fausto, I'm also considering dropping to a twice per week schedule due to the fact that I'm finding it hard to lift three times per week. Do you just stretch then usual 6 sessions for each rep range over three weeks instead of two? Or do you only do 4 sessions per rep range over two weeks?
 
Bulldog

Yep, I use the 3 week setup, don't want to reduce frequency too much. Works fine for me.
 
Thanks for the feedback everyone. After I SD here in a few weeks I'll definitely be using a 1 on 2 off frequency on my next cycle.
 
<div>
(Howard Roark @ Nov. 14 2007,22:51)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">despite a lousy diet. I'm up 13 lbs. of lean mass, and down 7.5 lbs. of fat and 1 1/2 inches off my waist.

My question is this..

During this cycle even as early as the 15's, I've found that if I take 2-3 days off between workouts, I always feel better, stronger, and actually look bigger than the EOD schedule. I have also found this in my past workouts, using a 1 on, 2-3 off. In other words, for me the less I train to an extent, the more I gain.

I also recently read a post on here stating that during one's SD they may grow a little, as you grow when you &quot;rest&quot;, not when you train.

So in my case, why not just use the standard progressive overload workouts, but in a 1 on 2-3 day off method as opposed to the 3 day per week schedule?
Thanks for any thoughts! I'll post my full cycle 1 results in another 2 weeks in the pinned thread.</div>
in my opinion you need to increase your calories to be able to gain more when your working out 3x a week. as long as your not repeatedly going to failure,eating plenty and ALWAYS getting enough sleep then you probably should feel better unless your in the heavy fives and dying. I think you would only gain BETTER with 2x a week IF you were only eating enough for 2 workouts a week. i think you should ATLEAST gain everybit as much with 3x a week as you would 2. as long as you eat more than what you are.
 
All good answers. You do what is working for you at this time, and when that stops, you make intelligent changes. But you should be sure that something is not working due to reaching it's endpoints, not because you're omitting something.
Good call, Ferg.
 
Everyone has good ideas/comments as always. I love higher frequency, but in terms of strength, I find lower frequency better hence why I am deadlifting once per week now.
 
<div>
(fergman @ Nov. 15 2007,18:21)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">in my opinion you need to increase your calories to be able to gain more when your working out 3x a week. as long as your not repeatedly going to failure,eating plenty and ALWAYS getting enough sleep then you probably should feel better unless your in the heavy fives and dying. I think you would only gain BETTER with 2x a week IF you were only eating enough for 2 workouts a week. i think you should ATLEAST gain everybit as much with 3x a week as you would 2. as long as you eat more than what you are.</div>
This makes sense as I wasn't exactly &quot;over&quot; eating due to not wanting to gain fat. Perhaps then (and this maybe the magic question) there is a sweet spot for each individual regarding days off and calorie intake during a specific workout that they can gain lean muscle, recoup, and NOT gain fat? And if so, how would one go about finding out that calorie amount?
 
You cannot gain significant muscle without also gaining significant fat, UNLESS:
1)you are obese
2)you are completely new to lifting.
3)you are taking anabolic hormones.

Part of getting big, strong muscles is overeating, and part of overeating is getting more fat tissue. You just have to eat enough where you are gaining muscle, but not so much that you become a tub-o-lard over night!
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I would suggest eating at least an extra 500 calories/day above normal and you should be gaining about a pound/week or more......and yes, your waist will increase as well as your biceps, thats just the way it goes.
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<div>
(Howard Roark @ Nov. 16 2007,16:57)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Perhaps then (and this maybe the magic question) there is a sweet spot for each individual regarding days off and calorie intake during a specific workout that they can gain lean muscle, recoup, and NOT gain fat? And if so, how would one go about finding out that calorie amount?</div>
You may want to look at some of Colby's remarks about a &quot;slow bulk&quot;. He seems to recommend about 250 calories over maintenance in an effort to limit excess fat gain while still managing to add muscle mass.

Whether or not it can be done remains to be seen. As Sci points out, gaining fat, unfortunately, seems to be an inescapable part of the equation.
 
This has and may cause again lots of different opinions.

I have reasons to believe that Berardi's approach may work whereby one eats above maintenance only during training days and back to maintenance on non-training days, this may limit the fat gain.

However I do agree with Sci to an extent, that some fat gain is inevitable...however...I dare say...I believe this can be minimized!
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<div>
(Fausto @ Nov. 19 2007,03:38)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">This has and may cause again lots of different opinions.

I have reasons to believe that Berardi's approach may work whereby one eats above maintenance only during training days and back to maintenance on non-training days, this may limit the fat gain.

However I do agree with Sci to an extent, that some fat gain is inevitable...however...I dare say...I believe this can be minimized!
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I have thought about that because your muscles are in protein synthesis mode, but aren't they doing this 48 hours after you lift?
 
I try not to get to militant about frequency and really hear what my (40 year old) body is telling me (which is an art in and of itself) , when using HST I do the 3x/wk fullbody style but end up postponing a workout or two somewhere in almost every cycle - as well as usually taking a 5-7 day &quot;break&quot; somewhere in each cycle due to travel obligations.


At the moment I'm doing a VERY abbreviated/simple routine I came up with that my body is thriving on :


MONDAY: Flat bench 3x3 @ 90+%1RM
OverHead Press 3x3 @ 90+%1RM

TUESDAY: Front Squat 8x3@ 80+%1RM
Chest supported Row 8x3@80+%1RM

Thursday: Flat bench 8x3 @ 80+%1RM
Overhead Press 8x3 @ 80+%1RM

Friday: Deadlift 3x3 @ 90+%1RM
Chest supported Row 3x3@90+%1RM


As I said , my body thrives on this type of stuff and call me crazy but I love the elegant simplicity of it - of course this would not be a hypertrophy routine per se , although I'd bet a lot of guys on here would be shocked at how much growth you can get out of a &quot;simple&quot; routine like this . I've said before that triples are a different kind of beast entirely and I feel lucky to have found a &quot;territory&quot; that suits my fiber composition and temperament so comfortably while STILL (after 2 decades) continuing to provide gains - and about the time I've taken this current plan about as far as I can take it an SD and then a round of &quot;simplify and win&quot; HST will seem fresh and exciting to me again .


Really I'm sharing this to support the OP , we are all individuals and it's a wise lifter(IMHO) that will take the science and apply it to himsel in a way that &quot;fits&quot; his body, temperament and lifestyle instead of &quot;forcing&quot; his body , temperament and liestyle to &quot;fit&quot; an un-natural (for him/her) arrangement of the variables. Good luck !
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<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I have thought about that because your muscles are in protein synthesis mode, but aren't they doing this 48 hours after you lift? </div>

Colby it has something to do with less absorption over time, I believe that as in a bacterial growth graph (exponential, then lag, then death phase, meaning the graph does start going down after all the substrate is used up and the population is too much for that substrate).

Likewise the protein synthesis is probably exponential straight after training and goes on for 48 hours but is has to start leaning out thus the absorption would be less and less over time.

Anyway, I am not the expert here and am treading on &quot;dangerous&quot; ground by theorizing!
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if you are doing HST correctly,3x a wk should not be a problem even for us older guys,fatigue managment is inbuilt,if you are finding it difficult then you have either set your cycle up wrong,or you have adjusted it and taken out the fatigue management.
lets face it if your starting on submax weights,only going to near faliure every 2wks how can training 3x a wk be hard
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Very good point Faz.
For some of us with years of gym time it's different. Seems like many (even much younger) guys have to hit things a bit harder to continue with any gains when the genetic wall is close. I actually prefer it this way, not hitting maxes all the time, but hovering much closer than the vanilla system recommends.
If I do begin feeling overreached, I take an extra day off as needed.
 
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