Pull-Ups with HST?

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XxGodjrxX

New Member
I am in the process of making up my first HST routine. I have been doing MAX-OT style training for about a year, and while my strength has gone way up, I definitely could be a lot bigger.

My question pertains to pull-ups. I've been doing pull-ups for a while, but I have never been able to do 15 straight before. While on MAX-OT, I typically only went for 6 reps or so, so I could strap about 20 pounds around my waist and crank out 7 or 8. The most I've done with just bodyweight was 11 or 12 on my first work set.

Should I bother to incorporate pull-ups in my HST routine since I can't get to 15? Should I just do Lat Pulldowns for all 8 weeks? A mix of the two? Any advice is greatly appreciated.
 
A lot of people can't hit 15. You could do several things.
You could just do pulldowns, as you suggested, weights adjusted from your 15rm.
You could do bentover rows if you're a young guy with a great back. *(I'm not)
You could cluster the sets. Just do as many as you can with good form and ROM, rest a bit, then pull again, until you have your 15. This way you are doing the workload (lbs. x reps) and when you can get 15 in one set, add weight the next workout.
Since you're nearly able to do a set anyway, it won't be long before you can. Most guys would probably do pulldowns until they hit their bodyweight, then switch to the bar. The 15's aren't really for strength anyway, and the pulldowns allow for submax weights. With a full 15 reps, you are getting lactic acid buildup, which helps heal the joints, mitochondria increase, and enabling nerve pathways, all which get you ready for the tens and fives.
Be sure to deload first.
 
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(XxGodjrxX @ Nov. 27 2006,14:15)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I am in the process of making up my first HST routine.  I have been doing MAX-OT style training for about a year, and while my strength has gone way up, I definitely could be a lot bigger.  

My question pertains to pull-ups.  I've been doing pull-ups for a while, but I have never been able to do 15 straight before.  While on MAX-OT, I typically only went for 6 reps or so, so I could strap about 20 pounds around my waist and crank out 7 or 8.  The most I've done with just bodyweight was 11 or 12 on my first work set.  

Should I bother to incorporate pull-ups in my HST routine since I can't get to 15?  Should I just do Lat Pulldowns for all 8 weeks?  A mix of the two? Any advice is greatly appreciated.</div>
Keep the pull ups. Use clustering to get to 15 reps if need be. You can also incorporate some assistance with counterweights or bands to help you get to 15.
 
do pulldowns for the 15s,and do pullups for the 10s,5s.
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For biomechanical reasons that I have not researched, I find that pull downs are inferior to pull ups. Perhaps my form is not as correct as it should be. I sit in an upright position with my back supported but I may still have some forward sway that compromises my form. Perhaps it is the physics of the pulleys that seem to make pull downs much easier. I notice the same with regular close grip chin ups versus using a lat machine.
 
I hear what O&amp;G and Quad are saying and I think they are right. However, I have been doing parallel grip pull downs during 15s and 10s and then switching to chins during 5s and beyond. My lats are definitely getting stronger now though so next cycle I'll be doing chins from 10s.

I think that the leaner you are the more likely you should be doing chins from the get go. My excuse is that I am carrying plenty of excess weight right now.
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My plan was to do two sets of bent over rows and two sets of pull ups. Back is one of my favorite muscles to hit, and the prospect of not doing both rows and pull ups makes me sad
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I think I may go with pull downs for the 15's and 10's, and pull ups for the 5's. That way I can add weight during the 5's, comfortably knowing that I can finish off all the sets.

Thanks for the advice.
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In my current cycle, I rested one foot on a ladder during the 15s. I added 5 lbs for two workouts, then the same plus 10 pounds for two workouts.

In the tens, I'm doing bodyweight for all six workouts. The first time, I got a set of 9 and a set of 8. Next workout, I will change grip and expect about the same thing. For the last four workouts, I will cluster to ten.

In the 5s, I will increment up to bodyweight plus 20 lbs, my previous 5rm.
 
Most college and commercial gyms I have seen have a weight assisted pullup/dip machine, at my gym its called a gravitron...I am guessing that since you posted this you gym is lacking one, but its worth taking a look.
 
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(XxGodjrxX @ Nov. 27 2006,14:15)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">I am in the process of making up my first HST routine.  I have been doing MAX-OT style training for about a year, and while my strength has gone way up, I definitely could be a lot bigger.  

My question pertains to pull-ups.  I've been doing pull-ups for a while, but I have never been able to do 15 straight before.  While on MAX-OT, I typically only went for 6 reps or so, so I could strap about 20 pounds around my waist and crank out 7 or 8.  The most I've done with just bodyweight was 11 or 12 on my first work set.  

Should I bother to incorporate pull-ups in my HST routine since I can't get to 15?  Should I just do Lat Pulldowns for all 8 weeks?  A mix of the two? Any advice is greatly appreciated.</div>
If I were you, I would start with 7 on the 1st day of your 2 week cycle, and just add one every workout. Hopefully, by the last day of the cycle, you'll be able to do 13. If not, don't sweat it. You'll get at least 13 and maybe more when you do another 15set cycle in the future.
 
I do work out in a university gym, and there is one of those assisted pull up machines. I have used it before, back when I couldn't do any pull-ups. I don't really like it that much, but I may give it a shot. I would have to go back to the gym and recalculate the 15-rep max using that machine, which would increase the amount of time I have to deload.

My weakness with pull ups seems to be more endurance based than strength based. I can put weight around my waist and do almost as many reps as if I had no weight added. I have also been making gains lately without gaining weight, so it isn't a matter of having too much fat on me. It could also be the result of overtraining. Three or four months straight of MAX-OT with no break in between has really taken it out of me.
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Whenever i feel i have overtrained, i take a week off. I come back MUCH stronger than the last time i worked out.
 
Xx: You should definitely SD before you start on your HST cycle.

Another point I don't think has been mentioned yet is that if you are bulking and adding around a lb a week, you will find that chin-ups don't get a whole lot easier from cycle to cycle until you stop bulking or reduce the rate of bulking. I forgot about this for dips too (doh!) so was much happier with my progress once I took my weight gain into account.
 
I haven't really been bulking though. My weight has been around the same for the last few months. I've lost a little fat though. I've been able to add five pounds every week on my dips for the last three months or so. My goal was to get up to 90 around my waist, which I accomplished in my last chest workout before my new break. At 160 pounds and 90 pounds around my waist, that may be the record for my gym (sadly).
 
Here's an idea. Have a rep goal for the workout, not for the set with your chosen weight. For example, if you are doing 1x15 then your rep goal for the whole pullup portion of the workout is 15. If it's 2x15, then your rep goal is 30. Do as many as you can in each set while stopping short of failure, no matter how many sets it takes to get the goal. If you are doing sets of 2 or 3 by the end of the day it's OK as long as you hit your reps for the day.

Think back to your max ot days. Remember the article about avoiding shoulder problems by changing from the Max OT method and doing 50 pullups on back day...even if you were only doing a few by the end of the workout? Same idea and very effective.

That's how I did mine a long time before learning about HST and worked up to three sets of 25 without failure before I had to start adding weight again.

If I remember correctly - I had better lats then too...especially the lower head.

Or maybe they just looked better because everything else was much smaller than now so they stuck out more??

Either way, just find some way to get the pullups done because it's very cool to look in the mirror and see your back from the front.
 
So if you are doing 1x15 and you manage to only pull off 13, you stop, wait a minute or less, and then finish it up?
 
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(Cova @ Nov. 27 2006,22:44)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">So if you are doing 1x15 and you manage to only pull off 13, you stop, wait a minute or less, and then finish it up?</div>
I would stop at 11 or 12 if I felt myself approaching failure. Take a short break, then resume and get the rest of my reps.

I got that idea of a rep goal for the workout from etothepi before finding my way to this forum. His results which have made him the buffest math teacher around inspired me to give it a try.

Remember that with HST we don't work to failure. We work with more frequency so we have to save the CNS for next time. Having MS, I really have to take care of my CNS so HST and 5x5 are perfect for me. If that means that I stop a set short, catch my breath and resume - then so be it.

I have learned that there are many ways to get it done. Having a rep goal is just one of the easiest and it reduces your risk of injury because it keeps you from pushing to failure and beyond.
 
It's not so much the actual pull ups that I am thinking about, but how to progress. If I wanted to, I can pull of thirty pull ups with four sets. The question is how can I progress like this? I can't strap on extra weight when doing the 15's when I am not able to get to 15 with just body weight.

I've been doing low rep pull ups for a while, and it has worked well for me. Nevertheless, I want to do this HST program exactly as it is listed. I've especially never done high-rep before, and would like to see whether it actually does something for me or not. This is what makes me a little weary of doing cluster sets, I dont think I'll be able to progress through the 15's effectively.

By doing 4 sets to get up to thirty reps total, I'll be doing twelve sets of pullups a week. I did three or four sets of pullups a week when doing MAX-OT. Wouldn't doing these many sets a week be overdoing it big time? Is my line of thinking wrong here?

With such a variety of opinions, I wonder what would work best. That's the only thing that really matters to me. If going on the girly assisted-pullup machine works best, I'll swallow my pride and do it (and cry myself to sleep
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X,

I'm going to suggest that in your case doing the pullups on the assist machine or using a lat pulldown to get the progression would probably be the most effective. Even with those, in time you will be doing your 15's with with real pullups and weight chained around your waist. Probably less time than you think.

However, if you don't want to use the machine. Just do the weight progression but do it in shorter sets. As has been stated all over the forum and by the founder...&quot;there is no magic number of sets and reps&quot; The principals are a guide that you adapt to your abilities. As long as you are getting the frequency and progression, you will be fine and will grow.

I had to do it the way I did because I hate the lat tower and don't have an assisted pullup machine. Besides, I just like the &quot;cool points&quot; I get to give myself every time my chin goes over that damn bar. When I started out I couldn't even do a single bodyweight pullup. Pullups are the only &quot;ego lifting&quot; that I do so I always find a way to do them.

Like I said before. It doesn't matter how you do it...just do it. No matter if you use the lat pulldown, assisted pullup machine, or set a rep goal doing sets you can manage with real pullups.

Your lats will hate you for it and you'll love your lats after it.
 
I am wondering about this guys.

I know of all the different options one can do in this situation, but does anyone have any hard evidence or experience that would indicate which of these options would be the best?

Or does it really not matter and simply whatever floats a person's boat?

Personally, if I could do anything over 7 reps at a time with bodyweight, I would just do bodyweight during the 15s and try to increase the amount of reps for each session (would cluster to get 15) over the minicycle, and if not, wouldn't sweat it.

All the while I would be thinking that this problem will only occur in this and possibly the next cycle, but after that would need to add weight during the 15s, so that in the long run, who cares if I can't get the 15 reps in one set right now.

But, as this is exactly what I am doing right now, would like some confirmation.
 
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