question about frequency & hypertrophy

P

pompo

New Member
Hi guys,

this is basically a routine-change-question, but it has its roots in a potential misunderstanding on my part about frequency.

I've read on Dan's site (or in this forum, I don't remember) that targeting a muscle twice a week is basically enough when all you care about is inducing hypertrophy. So, I concluded, targeting a muscle more than twice per week is a waste of energy. Enter my routine change question:

Currently it looks like this:
Monday, Thursday: Squat alt. with Overhead Squat, Dips, Bench, Military Press, Triceps Iso

Tuesday, Friday: Cleans, Deadlift alt. with Rack Pulls, Chin-up, DB Row, Biceps, Calf Raise

I want to change it to something like this

Monday: Squat, DB Row, Bench Press, Military Press, Dips
Tuesday: DB Row, Bench Press, Deadlift, OH Squat, Chins
Thursday:Dips, DB Row, Military Press, Front Squat, Chins
Friday: Bench Press, Cleans, Rack Pull, Military Press, Chins

Worth the change? I don't like the isos and would like to get rid of them. Thanks.
 
Too much squatting IMO, but it could work.
wink.gif
 
I like the routine.

I would do heavy back squats on Friday rather than Monday, front squats on Monday, OH squat and cleans on Thursday so that I was better recovered for deads on Tuesday. I would drop one of the chin sessions (Thurs) and switch one of the db row session with Pendlays. I would also do one military press session before all chest/tri work so I could really hit my delts hard when fresh.

I don't agree with Fausto here because I view OH squats as more of a core/shoulder workout than for legs. So, effectively, you are only squatting twice a week and deadlifting once. That seems fine to me.

The only thing that seems odd to me is that your new routine doesn't fit with what you say in your post about targeting each muscle group only twice weekly. Several exercises are in there three times. You could simplify it still further but I would see how you get on with what you have there. I don't think three times a week is a bad thing. Strength usually recovers better when hitting a muscle group only twice a week but for hypertrophy, three times weekly should be fine.
 
My knowledge of OH and front squats is limited so all is well, then good ol'LOL knows his stuff, i retrieve my words!
biggrin.gif
 
<div>
(Fausto @ Aug. 06 2007,04:24)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Too much squatting IMO, but it could work.
wink.gif
</div>
I think it's just fine Fausto. In his original routine, he has squats once/week alternated between two variations. In his revised routine, it goes up to three times/week for standard HST frequency.

Go with LOL's advice on moving some of the exercises up, but the 4x/week frequency is very solid!
 
Thanks all for the quick replies!

@Lol:
What I would like to know is if more than two times per week is really worth it.

I like the new routine because I can do my favourite lifts more often, but am unsure if it's really superior to the old routine in terms of hypertrophy/energy spent.
 
3x/wk is ideal for hypertrophy with no real emphasis on strength. 2x/wk (IMHO) as a hypertrophy program would be a &quot;bare minimum&quot; for a natural lifter and volume would be adjusted accordingly . Some drawbacks would be that although the first couple sets will be much stronger, the additional volume needed to rival 3x/wk would come at a cost of the latter sets intensity.Conditioning will suffer (perhaps not very much - but some).
This (again IMHO) is a compromised HST perhaps to deal with time constraints - it will work , but for pure hypertrophy goals it would come in second to higher frequency.

For strength/ power goals (of which HST is not focused on) that would be a different story , but for these goals reps/sets/total volume would be arrived at much differently (than HST)for optimal results.


IMHO- I would hit muscle groups 2x/wk if doing a 4x/wk split for best hypertrophy results but 3x/wk full body although a mix of compromises is really the perfect balance for the goals that draw people to HST.
 
Just to toss my .02 in the mix.

It's known that one has to do enough in the right now in order to stimulate growth. If you can do enough in the &quot;right now&quot; and recoup enough to load again (with the same of greater load) in 48 hours then all is good. If you can't then taking another 24 hours to reload isn't a big deal IMOO.

I still believe that 3X a week is superior to 2X but only if you aren't sacrificing the amount of work needed and the absolute load in order to accomplish 3X week or more, if that's the case, and it's probably only marginally so.

Other than that I agree with Lol's critique.
 
<div>
(pompo @ Aug. 06 2007,04:15)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hi guys,

this is basically a routine-change-question, but it has its roots in a potential misunderstanding on my part about frequency.

I've read on Dan's site (or in this forum, I don't remember) that targeting a muscle twice a week is basically enough when all you care about is inducing hypertrophy. So, I concluded, targeting a muscle more than twice per week is a waste of energy. Enter my routine change question:

Currently it looks like this:
Monday, Thursday: Squat alt. with Overhead Squat, Dips, Bench, Military Press, Triceps Iso

Tuesday, Friday: Cleans, Deadlift alt. with Rack Pulls, Chin-up, DB Row, Biceps, Calf Raise

I want to change it to something like this

Monday: Squat, DB Row, Bench Press, Military Press, Dips
Tuesday: DB Row, Bench Press, Deadlift, OH Squat, Chins
Thursday:Dips, DB Row, Military Press, Front Squat, Chins
Friday: Bench Press, Cleans, Rack Pull, Military Press, Chins

Worth the change? I don't like the isos and would like to get rid of them. Thanks.</div>
I've gone to a 3 day per week schedule of full body workouts.

Every other day I workout.  I don't workout on Sunday, but frequently I will miss Monday as well for business reasons.  So... it's still works out.

The best part of HST is the intelligent way you train.  -  All you need to do is workout hard enough every other day and micro-trauma should be sufficient for growth. You've gotta eat like a horse all the time and never less that 1-1/2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight per day.

It's a simple process.

When I look at your routine I see muscle groups being worked again and again inside 48 hours, which can be counter-productive,

Bryan discusses in his article.

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_artcls_trainingfreq.html

The toughest thing about doing HST is walking away from workouts when you've still got plenty of energy.  
It's just normal to want to pump/swell up like a ballon, and be totally whipped when you walk out of the gym. Even today I'll comment, &quot;great workout&quot;, when I leave  exhausted.

I love to be sore, not in pain.  I know if I just gorge myself with the large quantities of the right food, down my pie hole, I'm going to get gains.

I've been doing HST for 3 years in December.  My gains are consistent, even though I've had some setbacks. By setbacks I mean---> an back injury that prevented any workouts for nearly 6 months and  times when I personal things that pevented workouts and interrupted cycles.  The kind of setbacks that affect any training.  

Principally, the reason I workout full body everyother day is to make sure I only micro-traumatize muscle groups based on the recommended 48 hours.  Sure there may be some overlap with mucle groups on those days I workout, but I'm not hitting those muscles again for sure within less than 48 hours.

That's my take on it.  There was a time I worked out HST 6 days per week, and tried my best to not work the same muscle group again for 48 hours.  Honestly,  I just couldn't prevent overlaps in my training.   My gains are still about the same training everyother day.  I am disciplined to make sure I continually work heavier weights.  I don't have many times where I don't better my previous workout loadings training this way.

I had plenty of times working out six days a week that I could not add weight or reps on exercises.

IMO,  I would suggest you carefully study the HST articles and the FAQ on these forums.   You can alter the HST, because no one will enforce you to do anything.  You'll also get plenty of good help on these forums, but to really understand HST I strongly suggest you try to follow a strict HST training for at least six months.
 
<div>
(domineaux @ Aug. 07 2007,07:19)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(pompo @ Aug. 06 2007,04:15)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hi guys,

this is basically a routine-change-question, but it has its roots in a potential misunderstanding on my part about frequency.

I've read on Dan's site (or in this forum, I don't remember) that targeting a muscle twice a week is basically enough when all you care about is inducing hypertrophy. So, I concluded, targeting a muscle more than twice per week is a waste of energy. Enter my routine change question:

Currently it looks like this:
Monday, Thursday: Squat alt. with Overhead Squat, Dips, Bench, Military Press, Triceps Iso

Tuesday, Friday: Cleans, Deadlift alt. with Rack Pulls, Chin-up, DB Row, Biceps, Calf Raise

I want to change it to something like this

Monday: Squat, DB Row, Bench Press, Military Press, Dips
Tuesday: DB Row, Bench Press, Deadlift, OH Squat, Chins
Thursday:Dips, DB Row, Military Press, Front Squat, Chins
Friday: Bench Press, Cleans, Rack Pull, Military Press, Chins

Worth the change? I don't like the isos and would like to get rid of them. Thanks.</div>
I've gone to a 3 day per week schedule of full body workouts.

Every other day I workout.  I don't workout on Sunday, but frequently I will miss Monday as well for business reasons.  So... it's still works out.

The best part of HST is the intelligent way you train.  -  All you need to do is workout hard enough every other day and micro-trauma should be sufficient for growth. You've gotta eat like a horse all the time and never less that 1-1/2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight per day.

It's a simple process.

When I look at your routine I see muscle groups being worked again and again inside 48 hours, which can be  counter-productive,

Bryan discusses in his article.

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_artcls_trainingfreq.html

The toughest thing about doing HST is walking away from workouts when you've still got plenty of energy.  
It's just normal to want to pump/swell up like a ballon, and be totally whipped when you walk out of the gym. Even today I'll comment, &quot;great workout&quot;, when I leave  exhausted.

I love to be sore, not in pain.  I know if I just gorge myself with the large quantities of the right food, down my pie hole, I'm going to get gains.

I've been doing HST for 3 years in December.  My gains are consistent, even though I've had some setbacks. By setbacks I mean---> an back injury that prevented any workouts for nearly 6 months and  times when I personal things that pevented workouts and interrupted cycles.  The kind of setbacks that affect any training.  

Principally, the reason I workout full body everyother day is to make sure I only micro-traumatize muscle groups based on the recommended 48 hours.  Sure there may be some overlap with mucle groups on those days I workout, but I'm not hitting those muscles again for sure within less than 48 hours.

That's my take on it.  There was a time I worked out HST 6 days per week, and tried my best to not work the same muscle group again for 48 hours.  Honestly,  I just couldn't prevent overlaps in my training.   My gains are still about the same training everyother day.  I am disciplined to make sure I continually work heavier weights.  I don't have many times where I don't better my previous workout loadings training this way.

I had plenty of times working out six days a week that I could not add weight or reps on exercises.

IMO,  I would suggest you carefully study the HST articles and the FAQ on these forums.   You can alter the HST, because no one will enforce you to do anything.  You'll also get plenty of good help on these forums, but to really understand HST I strongly suggest you try to follow a strict HST training for at least six months.</div>
Dom,

It would prob help some of the newcomers for you to post your routine and reps/ sets.

Not that you have too...but its pretty cool for the newbies to realize that for &quot;us&quot; veterans not much changes in day 1000 from day 1 with HST.

biggrin.gif
 
Frequency.

I consider 3x/week superior to 2x/week. The growth response lasts about 48 hours, at best. 3x/week is 6 days/week growing. 2x/week is only 4 days/week growing. Every other day is even better with every single day growing.

pompo, read &quot;acute versus chronic stimuli&quot; in the HST principles (What Is HST?, front page). It takes care of frequency and everything else. For your workouts, consider reducing the number of exercises you do in a single workout. Is there a reason you do four triceps exercises in the same workout?
 
<div>
(Martin Levac @ Aug. 08 2007,02:06)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">For your workouts, consider reducing the number of exercises you do in a single workout. Is there a reason you do four triceps exercises in the same workout?</div>
No, the new routine is based on a rough estimate of how much energy I can / will want to spend. Plus I wanted it to be compounds only, which might explain the triceps involvement.

Concerning the importance of frequency:

I have read the articles that recommend three times per week, but I believe there was some talk over at max-stim where Dan or sci-muscle referenced some study saying two times is enough. So this got me confused and that's why I started this thread.
 
<div>
(pompo @ Aug. 08 2007,16:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Martin Levac @ Aug. 08 2007,02:06)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">For your workouts, consider reducing the number of exercises you do in a single workout. Is there a reason you do four triceps exercises in the same workout?</div>
No, the new routine is based on a rough estimate of how much energy I can / will want to spend. Plus I wanted it to be compounds only, which might explain the triceps involvement.

Concerning the importance of frequency:

I have read the articles that recommend three times per week, but I believe there was some talk over at max-stim where Dan or sci-muscle referenced some study saying two times is enough. So this got me confused and that's why I started this thread.</div>
Monday: Squat, DB Row, Bench Press, Military Press, Dips
Tuesday: DB Row, Bench Press, Deadlift, OH Squat, Chins
Thursday:Dips, DB Row, Military Press, Front Squat, Chins
Friday: Bench Press, Cleans, Rack Pull, Military Press, Chins


pompo where is the twice a wk in this,
you have a row&quot;back/bis,and a press shoulders/pecs/tris, every workout so i count that as 4 times
rock.gif
 
<div>
(pompo @ Aug. 08 2007,11:10)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(Martin Levac @ Aug. 08 2007,02:06)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">For your workouts, consider reducing the number of exercises you do in a single workout. Is there a reason you do four triceps exercises in the same workout?</div>
No, the new routine is based on a rough estimate of how much energy I can / will want to spend. Plus I wanted it to be compounds only, which might explain the triceps involvement.

Concerning the importance of frequency:

I have read the articles that recommend three times per week, but I believe there was some talk over at max-stim where Dan or sci-muscle referenced some study saying two times is enough. So this got me confused and that's why I started this thread.</div>
Frequency and compound movements.

From the front page, What is HST?

&quot;In order for the loading to result in significant hypertrophy, the stimulus must be applied with sufficient frequency to create a new &quot;environment&quot;, as opposed to seemingly random and acute assaults on the mechanical integrity of the tissue.&quot;

&quot;HST also suggests using compound exercises to maximize the effects of loading on as much muscle as possible per exercise.&quot;

&quot;Progressive Load: Over time, the tissue adapts and becomes resistant to the damaging effects of mechanical load. This adaptation (resistance to the stimulus) can happen in as little as 48 hours (Repeated Bout Effect or Rapid Training Effect). As this happens, hypertrophy will stop, though neural and metabolic adaptations can and may continue.&quot;

&quot;Progressively Adjusting reps to accommodate Progressive Load: It is simply a way to accommodate the ever increasing load.&quot;


Consider only the important aspects: High frequency, progressive load, compound movements. The purpose of HST is to create a new environment of chronic growth. In order to create this new environment, we must stimulate the muscle with higher frequency than classic programs. In order to accommodate this higher frequency, we must reduce the number of exercises we do per workout. In order to reduce the number of exercises we do per workout and maintain a high % of total body stimulation, we must do compound movements. But look at progressive load and your three triceps exercises in your new routine.

How will you accommodate progressive load when you get to the 5's? How will you progress the load on all three exercises? Will you have to lift lighter weights in order to do them all? Or will you be able to progress the load on all three as high as you could if you only did one? Since all three target the triceps, any one of them will train the triceps. Choose one and progress the load as high as you can on it.

If, on the other hand, you do all three in the same workout, you may not be able to progress the load as high as if you only did one triceps exercises during the workout. As a result, the load progression will be shorter and/or the load increments will be smaller and/or you will progress the load only every couple of workouts. See how it's best to do only one exercise per muscle group per workout?


How much energy you can/will want to spend.

I had a problem recently, I realized I was confusing fatigue with lack of energy. The point is, I have much more energy than I have a capacity for fatigue. Which means I will be fatigued much sooner than I will lack energy. Fatigue is a function of the central nervous system while lack of energy is a function of fuel, glycogen, ATP and whatnots. I was concerned that I would spend too much energy if my workout lasted too long. If my workout lasted too long I would enter into catabolic state and begin using muscle as fuel. My concern was not founded. I have ample fuel.

Fuel I use to build muscle.

Which brings me back to your three triceps exercises per workout. Not only will you not be able to progress the load as high, you will also use more fuel. Fuel you can put to better use. Such as building muscle you just stimulated. Consider reducing the number of exercises per workout. Below is a simple alternating A/B workout.

A/B

Squat / Deadlift
Pendlay row / chins
Overhead press / dips

Since there is only one exercise per muscle group per workout, load progression can be done as high as possible without worrying about keeping some in the tank for a second or third exercise for the same muscle group. A high load progression means a long load progression means a long time growing. A high frequency means more time growing. Compound movements mean more muscles are growing.
 
<div>
(faz @ Aug. 08 2007,13:31)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Monday: Squat, DB Row, Bench Press, Military Press, Dips
Tuesday: DB Row, Bench Press, Deadlift, OH Squat, Chins
Thursday:Dips, DB Row, Military Press, Front Squat, Chins
Friday: Bench Press, Cleans, Rack Pull, Military Press, Chins


pompo where is the twice a wk in this,
you have a row&quot;back/bis,and a press shoulders/pecs/tris, every workout so i count that as 4 times
rock.gif
</div>
faz, you're quoting the new one. The old one was twice a week (see first post):

<div></div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Monday, Thursday: Squat alt. with Overhead Squat, Dips, Bench, Military Press, Triceps Iso

Tuesday, Friday: Cleans, Deadlift alt. with Rack Pulls, Chin-up, DB Row, Biceps, Calf Raise
</div>

The new one is more about doing the exercises I like, and getting better at doing them. Hence the higher frequency. So I prefer the new one but was unsure about the benefit (in terms of hypertrophy) the increased energy expenditure would reap.

I will give it a shot anyway, the idea of having a plain and brutal compound routine is just too tempting.
mad.gif
 
<div>
(Martin Levac @ Aug. 08 2007,15:09)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">How will you accommodate progressive load when you get to the 5's? How will you progress the load on all three exercises? Will you have to lift lighter weights in order to do them all? Or will you be able to progress the load on all three as high as you could if you only did one? Since all three target the triceps, any one of them will train the triceps. Choose one and progress the load as high as you can on it.</div>
This is not my first routine and I've just finished a five-month max-stim-routine that had a triceps-heavy day as well. I had snatch, dips, bench press, military press and pec dec the one day (and high pull, DL/Squat, chinup, row the other one) and was able to increment loads until 110% of my 4 RM. (In fact I raised the volume to 30 reps per compound movement halfway through my 6s, but that was definitely too much, in retrospect
tounge.gif
).

As I've said before, the new routine is based on my past experiences with HST/Max-Stim. I have a good feeling I can pull it off.
smile.gif
 
pompo, you ask for advice then argue against the advice given. Do you really want advice? Or would you rather I convince you that your choice of exercises and frequency is the right thing?
 
<div>
(Martin Levac @ Aug. 08 2007,16:27)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">pompo, you ask for advice then argue against the advice given. Do you really want advice? Or would you rather I convince you that your choice of exercises and frequency is the right thing?</div>
Martin, I'm grateful for every reply in this thread.
 
<div>
(Joe.Muscle @ Aug. 07 2007,20:33)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(domineaux @ Aug. 07 2007,07:19)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE"><div>
(pompo @ Aug. 06 2007,04:15)</div><div id="QUOTEHEAD">QUOTE</div><div id="QUOTE">Hi guys,

this is basically a routine-change-question, but it has its roots in a potential misunderstanding on my part about frequency.

I've read on Dan's site (or in this forum, I don't remember) that targeting a muscle twice a week is basically enough when all you care about is inducing hypertrophy. So, I concluded, targeting a muscle more than twice per week is a waste of energy. Enter my routine change question:

Currently it looks like this:
Monday, Thursday: Squat alt. with Overhead Squat, Dips, Bench, Military Press, Triceps Iso

Tuesday, Friday: Cleans, Deadlift alt. with Rack Pulls, Chin-up, DB Row, Biceps, Calf Raise

I want to change it to something like this

Monday: Squat, DB Row, Bench Press, Military Press, Dips
Tuesday: DB Row, Bench Press, Deadlift, OH Squat, Chins
Thursday:Dips, DB Row, Military Press, Front Squat, Chins
Friday: Bench Press, Cleans, Rack Pull, Military Press, Chins

Worth the change? I don't like the isos and would like to get rid of them. Thanks.</div>
I've gone to a 3 day per week schedule of full body workouts.

Every other day I workout.  I don't workout on Sunday, but frequently I will miss Monday as well for business reasons.  So... it's still works out.

The best part of HST is the intelligent way you train.  -  All you need to do is workout hard enough every other day and micro-trauma should be sufficient for growth. You've gotta eat like a horse all the time and never less that 1-1/2 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight per day.

It's a simple process.

When I look at your routine I see muscle groups being worked again and again inside 48 hours, which can be  counter-productive,

Bryan discusses in his article.

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_artcls_trainingfreq.html

The toughest thing about doing HST is walking away from workouts when you've still got plenty of energy.  
It's just normal to want to pump/swell up like a ballon, and be totally whipped when you walk out of the gym. Even today I'll comment, &quot;great workout&quot;, when I leave  exhausted.

I love to be sore, not in pain.  I know if I just gorge myself with the large quantities of the right food, down my pie hole, I'm going to get gains.

I've been doing HST for 3 years in December.  My gains are consistent, even though I've had some setbacks. By setbacks I mean---> an back injury that prevented any workouts for nearly 6 months and  times when I personal things that pevented workouts and interrupted cycles.  The kind of setbacks that affect any training.  

Principally, the reason I workout full body everyother day is to make sure I only micro-traumatize muscle groups based on the recommended 48 hours.  Sure there may be some overlap with mucle groups on those days I workout, but I'm not hitting those muscles again for sure within less than 48 hours.

That's my take on it.  There was a time I worked out HST 6 days per week, and tried my best to not work the same muscle group again for 48 hours.  Honestly,  I just couldn't prevent overlaps in my training.   My gains are still about the same training everyother day.  I am disciplined to make sure I continually work heavier weights.  I don't have many times where I don't better my previous workout loadings training this way.

I had plenty of times working out six days a week that I could not add weight or reps on exercises.

IMO,  I would suggest you carefully study the HST articles and the FAQ on these forums.   You can alter the HST, because no one will enforce you to do anything.  You'll also get plenty of good help on these forums, but to really understand HST I strongly suggest you try to follow a strict HST training for at least six months.</div>
Dom,

It would prob help some of the newcomers for you to post your routine and reps/ sets.

Not that you have too...but its pretty cool for the newbies to realize that for &quot;us&quot; veterans not much changes in day 1000 from day 1 with HST.

biggrin.gif
</div>
Not much has changed is right, except I'm competent to handle more weight and I've got a great feel for what is going on with my body.

There are a many threads on these boards with workouts.

I explained how I workout pretty carefully, which I think is more the meat of things.

The actual exercises by themselves.. well,  I do compounds for the most part.  I stay with the same exercises 15s - 5s and only make minor changes if I can't do the exercise I planned.  

I never lower the weight, regadless of reps.  In the very last week of the 5s before I SD,  I do my worksets and I conclude each exercise 15reps at 80% of my 5s weight.

Anyone starting out must remember to do the compounds that work the lower back and upper legs.  You cannot ignore development of the lower back, because as you get stronger your lower back has to have proper development to handle the loading.

It is amazing how much of all your exercises is affected by lower back strength.

Here is a great exercise for lower back, it you can't do stiff legged deadlifts and it is a lot safer that SLDL.  You can also add weight as you get stronger.

backextensions.jpg


backextension2s.jpg


Windows Media Player = Click link to play
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/videos/2006/hyperextensions.wvx
 
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